Have We Gone Full Circle In Northernsoul?

[Guest Brian Fradgley]

Dave Godin has a lot to answer for here by "branding" the term Northern Soul. You know in yourself whether you have "soul" or not, and as Sly Stone so aptly put it - it's different strokes for different folks.

There is something to be said for people who stick with what they like. They may go to an event once a month, are starved of their music on the radio, dont have the luxury of being able to afford the music to listen to whenever they want at home, and are blissfully content to wallow in nostalgia and share the "scene" (awful terminology!!) with like minded people.

The more adventurous amongst us boldly go where no man has gone before and search for new material to again share with like minded souls and acheive the same self satisfaction.

To blend the two may or may not be desirable from either party.

I tried to blend "northern" and "modern" ten years or more ago with limited success and actually made the cardinal sin of using both vinyl and the much scorned CD format. Everything from Twisted Wheel to Sounds of Blackness was played and to be honest the dancefloor was rarely totally empty.

Many of the "newies" played at that time have eventually become dance floor favourites.

My personal belief nowadays is that venues encourage disproportionate numbers of DJ's as a damage limitation exercise as a scattergun approach to occasionally get a few people dancing.

This is not to say that there are not a handful of excellent DJ's out there.

I have always found that a small group of DJ'S who all turn up at the beginning of the evening can guage the "feel" of the event and control the atmosphere and dancefloor accordingly.

Play lists go out of the window as even on regular venues people and people's moods can swing an evening and no two events are ever copybook.

In other words we return to my earlier point of different strokes for different folks.

On thing that I honestly can say is that back in the early days I can actually remember going home with newly played tunes still in my head.

Increasingly nowadays although I still feel the rhythm and tempo of some of the newer stuff ,with exceptions, they do not seem to remain there.

Maybe that's just old age kicking in!

Our music has long been built on diversity.

I quite happily moved from the Torch, to Blackpool Mecca, to Stafford, and on the Soul Weekenders at Birmingham and Blackpool into steppers, latin etc.

But these changes have always been driven by DJ's with a genuine feel for the dancefloor able to read the crowd no matter what their preferences are.

Evolution is fuelled by diversity but it can be a slow process.

Whatever we fed on in the past will at least in part be carried into the future.

[ImberBoy]

Dave Godin has a lot to answer for here by "branding" the term Northern Soul. You know in yourself whether you have "soul" or not, and as Sly Stone so aptly put it - it's different strokes for different folks.

There is something to be said for people who stick with what they like. They may go to an event once a month, are starved of their music on the radio, dont have the luxury of being able to afford the music to listen to whenever they want at home, and are blissfully content to wallow in nostalgia and share the "scene" (awful terminology!!) with like minded people.

The more adventurous amongst us boldly go where no man has gone before and search for new material to again share with like minded souls and acheive the same self satisfaction.

To blend the two may or may not be desirable from either party.

I tried to blend "northern" and "modern" ten years or more ago with limited success and actually made the cardinal sin of using both vinyl and the much scorned CD format. Everything from Twisted Wheel to Sounds of Blackness was played and to be honest the dancefloor was rarely totally empty.

Many of the "newies" played at that time have eventually become dance floor favourites.

My personal belief nowadays is that venues encourage disproportionate numbers of DJ's as a damage limitation exercise as a scattergun approach to occasionally get a few people dancing.

This is not to say that there are not a handful of excellent DJ's out there.

I have always found that a small group of DJ'S who all turn up at the beginning of the evening can guage the "feel" of the event and control the atmosphere and dancefloor accordingly.

Play lists go out of the window as even on regular venues people and people's moods can swing an evening and no two events are ever copybook.

In other words we return to my earlier point of different strokes for different folks.

On thing that I honestly can say is that back in the early days I can actually remember going home with newly played tunes still in my head.

Increasingly nowadays although I still feel the rhythm and tempo of some of the newer stuff ,with exceptions, they do not seem to remain there.

Maybe that's just old age kicking in!

Our music has long been built on diversity.

I quite happily moved from the Torch, to Blackpool Mecca, to Stafford, and on the Soul Weekenders at Birmingham and Blackpool into steppers, latin etc.

But these changes have always been driven by DJ's with a genuine feel for the dancefloor able to read the crowd no matter what their preferences are.

Evolution is fuelled by diversity but it can be a slow process.

Whatever we fed on in the past will at least in part be carried into the future.

Thats what I was tryin to say lol

[Sean Hampsey]

If you could bottle your soul night and feed it intravenously to some of the other soul nights we would see an instant improvement in soul!

I was amazed, refreshed, inspired and down right happy to see this diamond of a soul do shining in a bucket of shit.

Barnsley, Saturday night and perched high above a trendy nuevo pub was a room filled with familiar faces from Wigan Casino, Canklow, School, the local area and Scooter Clubs, these are the people who by all accounts should be dancing to the "Snake" and being stuck firmly into the time space continuum created by their Casino past.

Can middle-aged folk be trendy? Can the older soul night "Soulies" be progressive and knowledgeable? Well it seams as though there is a small yet strong enclave of soulful people out and about in Yorkshire, I can not begin to say how proud I am to have been there, and honest it was like finding sanity in the asylum.

Rotherham, Sheffield, Barnsley, Doncaster, sorry if I don't mention others but I have a theory that we have seen the cream float to the top and culture a new and pure soul, I am struggling to find the words for this because there are no clichs to describe the difference in this superb soul night and some of the many others who have been lazy or scared to evolve.

There are soul nights out there who deserve the highest of accolades and this is one of them, yes we have an oil and water situation happening and the "reenactment crowd" aint gonna like what they hear, no that's not true because if a leap of faith is made then I am sure after some exposure a natural divvy vaccination will take effect, no you don't need a cure for Northernsoul but you do need a cure for "Northernsoul Repetition Disorder" and Doctor Soul is in da house!

Sorry to the DJ's who I asked to play the "Snake", good answers yet "F*ck off" was not the most eloquent lol.

Mega soul night and thank you for restoring my faith back in the manor.

Glad you liked it, Simon.

Thank you for the kind words.

For those who weren't there, Simon is referring to the 'At The Top Of The Stairs' do at the Blah Bar in Barnsley.

It was one helluva night and Tats and I enjoyed it immensely.

4-5 hours playing to an incredible crowd of Real Soul music, lovers.

My idea of heaven!

For more of the same, Simon, you need to make Just Soul on Nov 20th a definite date in the Diary!

Cheers

Sean

[Guest]

Not cynical Pete just expressing an opinion which you seem to do on a regular basis on here, I never mentioned anything about records just what the scene has turned into which has become a little like a fancy dress party for the over fifties in some areas of the scene and is something that I personally would rather not be a part of and choose not to be involved with anymore.

It's almost got to the stage that we are simply going through the motions and do this soul thing no matter what, perhaps because we know nothing else in most cases, as a scene it's be pulled apart and basically battered into submission, for those that still have the passion, dedication and commitment to do it then respect and good luck to them but also respect the flip of the coin and the opinions of others if you like them or not, for me and I stress for me it's simply not fun anymore and has nothing to do with my love for the music that we all know never goes away, guess it's a bit like a boxer who has one fight too many where you forget the greatness and simply see a punch drunk broken man and sorry but I'd rather not sit ringside anymore it's too painful in most cases.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

I do respect your viewpoint MARK, but perhaps it comes down to a simple case of boredom? You are right, perhaps after 35 years, things can become jaded but personally I do not believe there is a magic 'fix-it' solution. Its all about 'tastes' and there are still places where the vibe is good, the balance right between great oldies and fresher records and a good night is there to be had. The 100 Club has been cracking on a couple of occasions this summer

and it's amazing the amount of people who come on here and say they still have never been there!

I also think that the huge rash of weekenders, cruises and god knows what type of events have damaged the scene. Cleethorpes is great but do we really need all these events? No. In many cases they are greed driven and exploitive in nature but people buy into them so what can you do?

[Davenpete]

The soulie's that want to listen to something different are attending smaller venues,which are generally badly attended.The way forward may be to do what some oldie's nights are doing at the moment,which is to have a smaller room playing underplayed/rare/x over etc within the same venue such as Bentinck,Riley Smith Hall etc.

This long standing argument that 'oldies' pack em in/'newies' are small and badly attended is a load of crap!

The point is that proper newies/musically healthy nights run with an aggressively righteous approach are often 'magically' well attended because there ARE the people out there who come out of the woodwork when they KNOW they'll hear decent (ie not the usual rank hyper-overplayed oldies) music... Pete used to bemoan the lowbrow mentality of the big 'trouser' venues (despite our going to them through personal loyalty) and it wasn't til the first Lifeline do I dragged him (kicking and screaming) to that he sat up and said 'sod me this music's great - proper northern that I don't know!... And who are all these (young) people who are so into this music?' coz he'd been so hoodwinked by the propaganda and brow-beaten with stodgy third rate 'old' maintstream newies of the ilk of Doug Banks into the belief that was what he would hear.

To be honest we've actually made a conscious policy over the last few years of deliberately waiting for the scene to contract a bit coz it got big enough that the lowest common denominator rule killed off any hope of hearing consistently good music at most venues.

Dave

PS For our second nighter in 18 months we'll be at Lifeline.

[Guest Byrney]

Little to do with NORTHERN SOUL???? That section of the scene is not really my cup of tea but if 500 people are dancing to something fantastic like 'Love runs out' at an oldies do, it's still got everything to do with NORTHERN SOUL.

The day there are no dances celebrating the great tunes like that, will be very close to the overall end of the scene. (Which as I have just said, is inevitable anyway one day, so what use are wringing hands and hysteria?

Christ, the semantics and self-rightousness on here are reaching ridiculous heights, why the constant bitching and subtle pops at people?

No self righteousness from me, just an opinion. You get them on Forums. Ok I'll concede a bit it has something to do with Northern Soul - its an interpretation of a brief time of the scenes history but lacks the drivers that has been part of the scene since its beginning.

The Nostalgia Scene can fill their boots but Northern Soul for me and everyone I knock about with, was and is, about hearing the big sound, the new sounds, the underplayed and well placed oldies. The Nostalgia scene reject this and firmly place their view in the past. Some see the roots of this scene as a retro one but it never carved an identify based in 4 years of the scenes past and stayed there - How can that be Northern Soul? Ok the Nostalgia Scene play a small number of classics (that were newies at one time) but to reject the fundamental element of the scene - new records - makes them at odds with a key tenet of the scene.

Hysteria Behave

Edited September 28, 2009 by Byrney

[barney]

Dave Godin has a lot to answer for here by "branding" the term Northern Soul. You know in yourself whether you have "soul" or not, and as Sly Stone so aptly put it - it's different strokes for different folks.

There is something to be said for people who stick with what they like. They may go to an event once a month, are starved of their music on the radio, dont have the luxury of being able to afford the music to listen to whenever they want at home, and are blissfully content to wallow in nostalgia and share the "scene" (awful terminology!!) with like minded people.

The more adventurous amongst us boldly go where no man has gone before and search for new material to again share with like minded souls and acheive the same self satisfaction.

To blend the two may or may not be desirable from either party.

I tried to blend "northern" and "modern" ten years or more ago with limited success and actually made the cardinal sin of using both vinyl and the much scorned CD format. Everything from Twisted Wheel to Sounds of Blackness was played and to be honest the dancefloor was rarely totally empty.

Many of the "newies" played at that time have eventually become dance floor favourites.

My personal belief nowadays is that venues encourage disproportionate numbers of DJ's as a damage limitation exercise as a scattergun approach to occasionally get a few people dancing.

This is not to say that there are not a handful of excellent DJ's out there.

I have always found that a small group of DJ'S who all turn up at the beginning of the evening can guage the "feel" of the event and control the atmosphere and dancefloor accordingly.

Play lists go out of the window as even on regular venues people and people's moods can swing an evening and no two events are ever copybook.

In other words we return to my earlier point of different strokes for different folks.

On thing that I honestly can say is that back in the early days I can actually remember going home with newly played tunes still in my head.

Increasingly nowadays although I still feel the rhythm and tempo of some of the newer stuff ,with exceptions, they do not seem to remain there.

Maybe that's just old age kicking in!

Our music has long been built on diversity.

I quite happily moved from the Torch, to Blackpool Mecca, to Stafford, and on the Soul Weekenders at Birmingham and Blackpool into steppers, latin etc.

But these changes have always been driven by DJ's with a genuine feel for the dancefloor able to read the crowd no matter what their preferences are.

Evolution is fuelled by diversity but it can be a slow process.

Whatever we fed on in the past will at least in part be carried into the future.

thats so profound wished I had said it

well done that man

[Billywhizz]

Have we gone full circle in Northernsoul?

Are we failing as a music scene?

Have we gone full circle in Northernsoul? Just been reading the posts about why we need DJ's, the great bun fight at Manifesto's Soul Night and Keb Darge - Scotland's Finest Export since Whiskey.

It seams to me that we have different groups who seam unable, unwilling or even uneasy to hear new and unfamiliar tunes and one of these groups seam to be on the up and up, are these all the people who left the Northernsoul scene when it was pronounced dead after the Casino closed?

I feel like I am about to paint my self into a corner but it is my personal opinion that we have a large group, who are now the majority, who stopped listening to Northernsoul after the casino and they have missed the third wave and a change in music when the likes of Richard Serling, Guy, Keb and Ady plugged away when all but the very faithful remained.

Now I do not intend to take any high ground because I was there, I was at that age, too young for the Casino I was amongst the group who where, as it turns out, to be privileged to hear and absorb the newer sounds. I believe that the legacy of this gives a more open minded approach to Northernsoul and that is why the likes of Middleton and now Maxim's separates some groups like oil and water, this is the only tragedy of Northernsoul.

Robbo once said to me that at the age of ten you have heard every sound you will ever hear and only the frequency will be different, but we were both off our tits at the time so this may well be bollox?

I can honestly say that a stop you in your tracks record is rarer than hens teeth, you more than likely need to hear some thing a few times before it sits well in your mental duke box and I think this is why a certain group don't or wont listen and dance to new stuff, to say its all shit is just a cop out, most of the Northernsoul records sound shite when played cold, try it on a none soulie.

If we are not carful we are going to become a pack of cats and dogs with those clinging to the likes of frank Wilson (nothing wrong with the track but the example stands) and the others who can and do want progressive new sounds.

I saw this kind of thing happen in the early eighties on the scooter scene when the Southerners and the Northerners met to find their particular takes on Mod where as different as chalk n cheese.

I also think that we have our fair share of shady promoters who just want to cram their venues with Soulies wearing baggy pants, no disrespect to baggy pants mind but you get my drift. (I do wear them from time to time)

I also think some of you DJ's need to remember us dancers more and at least bring the tempo mid way when the floor needs it, I will dance to anything new, I have danced to some howlers but I have also danced to music that sounded as if it had come from heaven. Dj's stop blaming the audience and the audience stop blaming the DJ's, just dance and enjoy it1

Lets get back to our Northernsoul roots and stop holding on so desperately to the past, you can listen to the snake on the way home.

I still love my oldies, lifeline, and burnley is only the beginning long live northern soul.

Billy

[good angel]

[quote name='ImberBoy' date='28 September 2009 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1254131360' post='1160623'

I would love to see Sean Chapman double deck with Karl Herd, can any one make this happen? Andy?

Simon,

It sounds that your writing a script for a porn film.

Kev

[barney]

simon your anology with the scooter scene is very apt because as we are both into scooters and northern soul ,can see very similar arguements in either scene.

but in a nutshell scooterists all ride two (small) wheeled machines and soulies listen and dance to mainly black american soul music

the arguements are just irrelevent in the great scheme of things,

Edited September 28, 2009 by barney

[ImberBoy]

Barney that is just not true mate.

You have two scooters, one is a Vespa GTS 250 ie automatic, a new progressive modern scooter dripping with cutting edge technology. Your other scooter is a classic sixties Italian Lambretta, both should be equally accepted on the scooter scene but this is far from the case as you well know it.

We both know that in certain quarters of "tarn" the GTS will be sn*****ed at yet turn up on your Lambretta and the same knob heads clamber all over ya.

Barney we both ride and love scooters and we both have classics and modern autos, dare I say we are both progressive on the scooter front with a love and a respect for both.

The analogy of the scooter scene stands mate, compare this to the stuck in the mud soulie who can not, will not, dare not accept, hear, dance or enjoy any thing out side of the box marked played safe.

Besides, you wear women's shoes

[Mark S]

Facinating thread nice one Simon , I suppose I am a returnee stopped going to alnighters etc in 1978 marriage kids so my musical knoledge stagnated so most sounds post Casino I hadnt heard .

A couple of years ago decided to get back into it so to my ears most stuff is new and I love it dont want to listen to the stuff that ive spent the last 20 odd years stagnating to it has its place but there is so much good quality that has been discovered in the last couple of decades .

I am 53 now just hope I have enough time to catch up

So is there a good progresive night in the Stockport / Manchester area ?

[Guest]

No self righteousness from me, just an opinion. You get them on Forums. Ok I'll concede a bit it has something to do with Northern Soul - its an interpretation of a brief time of the scenes history but lacks the drivers that has been part of the scene since its beginning.

The Nostalgia Scene can fill their boots but Northern Soul for me and everyone I knock about with, was and is, about hearing the big sound, the new sounds, the underplayed and well placed oldies. The Nostalgia scene reject this and firmly place their view in the past. Some see the roots of this scene as a retro one but it never carved an identify based in 4 years of the scenes past and stayed there - How can that be Northern Soul? Ok the Nostalgia Scene play a small number of classics (that were newies at one time) but to reject the fundamental element of the scene - new records - makes them at odds with a key tenet of the scene.

Hysteria Behave

I think this is exactly why I used the word hysteria. That last paragraph is incredibly convoluted and almost impossible to address. Who actually are 'the nostalgia scene' whom you now seem to be addressing as a collective definable entity in their own right rather than 'events' or 'promotions'.

[Wrongcrowd]

Come on, I know what you mean about clothes and I certainly would not dream of wearing a clothes style I remember with affection but discarded in 1976, but it's not that which is stopping what you call 'youngsters' coming onto the scene...

You cant expect large numbers of people in their teens and twenties to start dedicating their lives to records that are thirty or 40 years old, the very idea is absurd and unfair.

I'm just back from DJing at Movin' On in Barcelona to a club full of people in their teens and twenties, playing records that were upto 40 years old, to real appreciation of everything soulful. So your over simplified and too convenient view of audience age versus music age doesn't work for me. The enthusiasm of European audiences to dance to tunes that many of them had never head before is testament to the timelessness and quality of the music, and a statement on the apathy that the vast majority on UK scene have for something different and fresh.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Wrongcrowd

[Jordirip]

I'm just back from DJing at Movin' On in Barcelona to a club full of people in their teens and twenties, playing records that were upto 40 years old, to real appreciation of everything soulful. So your over simplified and too convenient view of audience age versus music age doesn't work for me. The enthusiasm of European audiences to dance to tunes that many of them had never head before is testament to the timelessness and quality of the music, and a statement on the apathy that the vast majority on UK scene have for something different and fresh.

How did it go Cliff? Good eh?

Jordi

[barney]

Barney that is just not true mate.

You have two scooters, one is a Vespa GTS 250 ie automatic, a new progressive modern scooter dripping with cutting edge technology. Your other scooter is a classic sixties Italian Lambretta, both should be equally accepted on the scooter scene but this is far from the case as you well know it.

We both know that in certain quarters of "tarn" the GTS will be sn*****ed at yet turn up on your Lambretta and the same knob heads clamber all over ya.

Barney we both ride and love scooters and we both have classics and modern autos, dare I say we are both progressive on the scooter front with a love and a respect for both.

The analogy of the scooter scene stands mate, compare this to the stuck in the mud soulie who can not, will not, dare not accept, hear, dance or enjoy any thing out side of the box marked played safe.

Besides, you wear women's shoes

simon owd luv

personally as with scooters I have a varied taste in music and come on here just to wind some of the sanctimonius f**kers up

are you still wearing that tartan skirt

[Wrongcrowd]

How did it go Cliff? Good eh?

Jordi

It was brilliant Jordi...a top weekend.... ...gonna try to get back out there for December's Movin' On too

[Guest]

I'm just back from DJing at Movin' On in Barcelona to a club full of people in their teens and twenties, playing records that were upto 40 years old, to real appreciation of everything soulful. So your over simplified and too convenient view of audience age versus music age doesn't work for me. The enthusiasm of European audiences to dance to tunes that many of them had never head before is testament to the timelessness and quality of the music, and a statement on the apathy that the vast majority on UK scene have for something different and fresh.

Good but to be honest I think it is you who is simplifying things, by awarding 'a club' the unlikely mantle of ensuring that this generations teenagers and twenty somethings will eventually collectively see the light. Thus discarding hip hop, drum and bass, trance and every other of a million and one dance genres that currently absorb their passions.

Of course I know and accept there will be small pockets of people who will be attracted to the 'cultism', (This certainly apparent in some sections of international audiences who have a history of such allegiances, Japan etc)and indeed the quality of this music but again your choice of words is interesting. 'Everything Soulful'? 'Up to 40 years old?' What does that mean exactly? How many 'soul' genres are included in that, but never mind that is a sub plot anyway.

In truth the debate 'newies vs oldies' as relating to what we recognise as 'NORTHERN', opposed to a wide encompassing 'Soul' based scene, is a meaningless one. As somebody has already pointed out, the term 'newie' is besought with differing interpretations for different people. What exactly is a 'newie'? Yes I understand what you mean by it, but I am a 50 year old Northern Soul fan. If it's a new discovery from 1968 it's still an aincient record in the eyes of the majority of young people and young people by nature search for the 'new' by meaning something freshly created, i.e contemporary or 'of it's time'. I maintain that this factor alone - which is an eternal and vital quality of youth - is enough to ensure that we are never going to attract enough young people - in their thousands, not 'a' club-ful, to ensure that the Northern Soul Scene AS WE KNOW IT, exists via it's current manifestation - in say, thirty five years. There is simply no way that the gargantuan appetite for record collecting, research, artists-finding, promoting et al , is going to be transposed out of our generation to one thirty years or younger at present. That is not going to happen, much as some people would love to believe so.

I remember a long time ago, the Funk DJ CHRIS HILL making a very profound statement, when gangs of marauding MOD REVIVALISTS in parkas ponced along the beaches at Brighton whilst he was hosting a Jazz-Funk All Dayer on the seafront at Brighton Top Rank.

HILL: 'These people have got nothing to do with Mod. If they did have they would realise that the only Modernists in Brighton on Monday, were the ones dancing to the latest American Jazz-Funk releases in the Top-Rank'.

He was speaking conceptually of course, being that original culture of Mod in itself represented the antinethisis of what rose up in it's supposed name in the late 70s/early80s. The orignal Modernists concept is the natrual concept of youth and it's exploration and embrace of the genuinely 'new' and current.

He was absolutely right, although I realise there would be some people on here who might disagree and therein lies the dichotomy with the term 'newies' and the arguments that go along with the champions of that area of argument. Whilst I personally love hearing fresh records and always have done, I think we have to accept one thing. Hearing good new 60s and 70s Soul records that fit within the traditional musical definitions of that elusive 'Northern sound' definition is one thing and may well provide the current devotees with a few years extension of that area of the scene.

But in the long term, the quest for something that youth can hail as their 'own', i.e music, fashion and culture created by their own generations is what will eventually ensure the end of the Northern Soul Scene as we know it and that is unavoidable. Not people re-living their own youth by wearing baggy trousers and badges. That is in fact, a minor factor and if they get off on so be it. If you are genuinely 'in the know' there is always somewhere you can find to hear 'newies' and let's remember one other thing.

In the past, that thing of being part of an 'elite' i.e a small, privileged circle that were party to 'new' sounds and 'new' clubs etc, was celebrated. This directly by way of the Mod roots of the scene, actually but there you go.

If the newer, progressive side of the scene is still there, why should it's champions want it invaded by the baggy wearing hordes? Is it not a 'cooler' experience and a greater enjoyment when you feel you are part of something that not many people are aware of or absorbing? Something unique? This is one of the scene's fundamental principals surely? So perhaps - if we accept that - the actual argument here becomes somewhat strangulating.

Hope that's not too simplified this time.

Edited September 29, 2009 by chorleysoul

[Guest Trevski]

simon your anology with the scooter scene is very apt because as we are both into scooters and northern soul ,can see very similar arguements in either scene.

but in a nutshell scooterists all ride two (small) wheeled machines and soulies listen and dance to mainly black american soul music

the arguements are just irrelevent in the great scheme of things,

Talking of analogies, here is one for you.

Anyone remember the series "Sorry' with Ronnie Corbett, about a middle aged man living at home with his domineering Mother?

I think the nostalgia crowd are a bit like that, Timothies! Oldies are like our Mums. We were all born of oldies, they brought us up, and like or mums taught us to walk, oldies taught use to dance. Like our Mums bought our clothes, oldies dictated the way we dressed. The thing is, at some point most of us leave our Mum, cut the apron strings, and go it alone. We still love our Mum, visit her often, but like our independence and would never go back there. The oldies only crowd still live at home with their mums, who still buy their clothes and if they should ever look at another woman, or mention her name, they get a firm "Language, Timothy, Mother knows best!" Henceforth I shall be renaming the Nostalgia scene as the "Timothy scene" "Are you going to such and such a venue?" "Nah mate, its full of Timothies!"

Edited September 29, 2009 by Trevski

[TOAD]

THIS TIMOTHY HAS GOT HIS OWN SCENE THANKS TREV

[Wrongcrowd]

Good but to be honest I think it is you who is simplifying things, by awarding 'a club' the unlikely mantle of ensuring that this generations teenagers and twenty somethings will eventually collectively see the light. Thus discarding hip hop, drum and bass, trance and every other of a million and one dance genres that currently absorb their passions.

Maybe I've missed the point of the thread, but wouldn't "going full circle" involve the return to smaller club nights dedicated to playing obscure and little known soul music tracks across a number of styles to an enthusiastic audience, looking for something other than the over-ground mainstream ?

So when I referred to an enthusiastic European crowd and club scene it was this definition I had in mind, not one that was trying to replicate the music and fashion style of the Casino; stuck in the past with nowhere to go but down. When I said "everything soulful", I meant Northern, modern, contemporary, funk, jazz and plenty in between. The scene I became part of was an across the board soul scene.... , and it is only recently that it has morphed into one that has managed to convince itself that 4 to the floor 60's is the only way...and always has been....

For the record, I entirely agree with Chris Hill's comments of the day, though you've failed to appreciate that the jazz-funk scene often dipped into older, obscure releases that complimented the new releases.

[barney]

Talking of analogies, here is one for you.

Anyone remember the series "Sorry' with Ronnie Corbett, about a middle aged man living at home with his domineering Mother?

I think the nostalgia crowd are a bit like that, Timothies! Oldies are like our Mums. We were all born of oldies, they brought us up, and like or mums taught us to walk, oldies taught use to dance. Like our Mums bought our clothes, oldies dictated the way we dressed. The thing is, at some point most of us leave our Mum, cut the apron strings, and go it alone. We still love our Mum, visit her often, but like our independence and would never go back there. The oldies only crowd still live at home with their mums, who still buy their clothes and if they should ever look at another woman, or mention her name, they get a firm "Language, Timothy, Mother knows best!" Henceforth I shall be renaming the Nostalgia scene as the "Timothy scene" "Are you going to such and such a venue?" "Nah mate, its full of Timothies!"

very intrestin trev but you seem to be equating the oldies crowd with a middle class sitcom dont think there are many parallels in this analysis

dont think nostalgia comes into this , the majority of people I know just want the scene to continue for them for as long as it is physically possible and in the main are quite happy to go to their local soul night and listen to mainly classic oldies and whatever they find acceptable from the person behind the decks .

hereby lies the crux of the argument

a good dj should be able to gauge what the punters will accept at a venue and be willing to change tack if what he is playing isnt working

[Modernsoulsucks]

I was wondering when someone would bring up the overseas scene to contradict Chorleysoul's observation but it doesn't make his point invalid or less true.

I get there's younger people abroad but I don't see how that reflects on the oldies scene here. IMO all it does is draw attention to the fact that it doesn't appear to be attracting young fans in the UK. Not that I'd really expect an influx into the oldies scene but where there are modern nights is this happening? Something like "Soul Essence"? If not you can't put it down to modes of dress or sticking with the same old Wigan format. More to do as Chorley says with choice of music available now and the age difference with the music being of a time and place.

I don't think we should be constantly blaming the oldies crowd for any perceived ills as they've been here since M's opened and that didn't stop Stafford or Sam/Arthur doing their thing. In fact judging from amount of nights on it's going strong still although obviously somewhat fragmented in that it has to cater to a more diverse range of tastes.

ROD

[Lovemusic]

"Have we gone full circle in northern soul"?

how did it all start?

With the music!

Someone heard some amazing music as new releases back in the 60's (?) and told their friends about it, shared this discovery and began to look out for more music of this quality.

Friend shared with friend and pretty soon there became an unofficial appreciation society that begat a scene. To distinguish themselves from the ordinary people they started to dress alike, talk alike and start their own soul nights because they weren't being catered for by anyone else.

Over a period of time all this became cool and trendy, and a thing to aspire to.

Not the music so much, but the scene, the lifestyle, the style of dancing, the dress and the slang together with the accessories:-badges, bags and boxes (record).

What started out as the most important thing became less so, and what was less important became the dominant factor. So the clubs, the beat, the dress, the allnight dances and the collecting of records was now perhaps more important than the quality of the original ideal, the great music!

I don't know if we have reached that cyclic point in time were we all can start afresh with the original reason for it's birth, the music, and throw out the bickering and hype, the them and us, the dinosaurs and modernists, the hip and the square, but i do feel that some have already started, just by asking these questions, and some have never lost sight of the importance of the music in the first place.

So now more than ever let's "keep THE faith" and listen to all soul music with open ears, dance to all soul music with an open heart but only if it's geart soul music!

[Guest Trevski]

very intrestin trev but you seem to be equating the oldies crowd with a middle class sitcom dont think there are many parallels in this analysis

Well, if it's a class thing....... Let's just change 'Mum' for 'Dad' and call 'em Steptoes!

Edited September 29, 2009 by Trevski

[barney]

Well, if it's a class thing....... Let's just change 'Mum' for 'Dad' and call 'em Steptoes!

nice try trev but its hardly northern is it

[Guest sarahleen]

phyliss hyman, you know how to love me, huge at rotherham , stafford etc where would this record fall with the baggy pants brigade on my last played

you should have been at dewsbury town hall (baggy pants brigade ?) for gibbys set , great stuff.

iv been to an event every week for the last year , sometimes three in one weekend and i have to say i love and attend both "scenes" ( but not stoke ).

to put it bluntly id say the "nostalgia" scene is more of a dancers scene and the "progressive" scene is more of a collector / social scene .

some people work hard all week and all they want to do is dance away their everyday stress and worry . i dont know why some people on here constantly put the "baggy pants brigade" down ? at least they dance !. iv been to some venues (70%men ) where 60% of punters just sit or stand around pontificating allnight within inches ! of people trying to dance , very off putting for some dancers especially when its a tiny floor

personally i prefer the music played at " prog" venues , but often iv found these venues dont really cater for the dancers and are held in small clubs or function rooms and are often let down by the condition / postition/size of the dancefloor .

one last thing

does it really matter if someone has been into northern soul for ten minutes , ten years or 30 years ? . stop being such snobs and remmember its dance music for everyday people to let their hair down on a weekend its not rocket science

Edited September 29, 2009 by sarahleen

[barney]

but sara women can multi task where as we blokes have to concentrate

your spot on though

[Guest sarahleen]

but sara women can multi task where as we blokes have to concentrate

your spot on though

thanks barney . i can take my tin helmet off for a while now then

[Guest]

Maybe I've missed the point of the thread, but wouldn't "going full circle" involve the return to smaller club nights dedicated to playing obscure and little known soul music tracks across a number of styles to an enthusiastic audience, looking for something other than the over-ground mainstream ?

So when I referred to an enthusiastic European crowd and club scene it was this definition I had in mind, not one that was trying to replicate the music and fashion style of the Casino; stuck in the past with nowhere to go but down. When I said "everything soulful", I meant Northern, modern, contemporary, funk, jazz and plenty in between. The scene I became part of was an across the board soul scene.... , and it is only recently that it has morphed into one that has managed to convince itself that 4 to the floor 60's is the only way...and always has been....

For the record, I entirely agree with Chris Hill's comments of the day, though you've failed to appreciate that the jazz-funk scene often dipped into older, obscure releases that complimented the new releases.

Travelling in reverse gear...

Firstly, I have in no way 'failed to appreciate' anything about the Jazz Funk scene. I have simply repeated a quote from CHRIS HILL regarding the cultural

status of the scene and how it represented a tradition going back to original MODS dancing to BRAND NEW 60s Soul records. I.E 'Up to date', 'Utra-Modern' if you like.

As far as the music was concerned, I went to a lot of the top Jazz Funk venues/Caister Weekenders etc and although there was a handful of older records mixed in (sometimes in a novelty fashion as in the case of 'My baby just cares for me' NINA SIMONE), I can asurre you that the accent of that scene was primarily and firlmly on NEW RELEASES especially those in the 12 inch import variety. This was reflected in both the DJ's club playlists and the radio shows such AS ROBBIE VINCENT'S saturday show which ran at Sunday lunchtimes for several years. Any consultation with any of the prominent DJ's of that scene at the time, will confirm that. In fact collectively the Jazz Funk scene trumpeted the importance of new Releases, to a level which actually caused considerable friction with some Northern Soul fans, but that's another chapter.

As regards the 'across the board' music policy at the club you were referring to, thank you for confirming this, because it was absolutely as I expected and as such is not a fair representation of the specific question raised on this thread.

So yes, you have missed the point.

In the 80s, there was a 'warehouse' scene in London that preceeded 'Acid House, Rave' etc. The type of electic 'across the board Soul' music policy you are talking about was apparent in that scene and 60s Soul, hard funk, Jazz, latin and 80s contemporary tracks were played by DJ's to enthusiastic crowds who were basically out for a good night's clubbing and just wanted to dance their arse off to feelgood quality dance music. That scene was augmented in the South of England in places like Bournemouth and Southampton where DJ'S like SHAY, GRAHAM T and BOB POVEY provided similar soundtracks in a series of Nightclubs. It was a terrific scene and well popular with Soul fans of all the individual genres.

Thing is though - it was seperate from the actual defined 'Northern Soul Scene'. I thought that was what we were talking about here.

There is a distinct difference between the Northern Soul scene, where the tradition is for mid to uptempo 60s and 70s Soul sides which capture a certain essence identifiable with the label 'Northern Soul' an and across the board Soul Secene wherein there is music of every genre and period mixed up in a dance cocktail.

The debate as regards Northern Soul 'Oldies' and 'Newies' is a debate confined within the musical trends recognised as Northern Soul. To find a high quality 'Northern newie' is a completely different quest to finding a good Soul record of any genre which will slide in on a total 'across the board' policy. It is far, far harder too as I am sure there are a few on this site who could confirm.

If you are going to throw in every Black Music style that Soul has produced within the last 40 years, you are talking about a different subject. The Northern Soul Scene was never about that and it never will be. So in fact you are discussing a different scene.

[Guest proudlove]

thanks barney . i can take my tin helmet off for a while now then

You don't need a tin hat,---------you are spot on,dead right ,correct.

[Guest James Trouble]

Travelling in reverse gear...

Firstly, I have in no way 'failed to appreciate' anything about the Jazz Funk scene. I have simply repeated a quote from CHRIS HILL regarding the cultural

status of the scene and how it represented a tradition going back to original MODS dancing to BRAND NEW 60s Soul records. I.E 'Up to date', 'Utra-Modern' if you like.

As far as the music was concerned, I went to a lot of the top Jazz Funk venues/Caister Weekenders etc and although there was a handful of older records mixed in (sometimes in a novelty fashion as in the case of 'My baby just cares for me' NINA SIMONE), I can asurre you that the accent of that scene was primarily and firlmly on NEW RELEASES especially those in the 12 inch import variety. This was reflected in both the DJ's club playlists and the radio shows such AS ROBBIE VINCENT'S saturday show which ran at Sunday lunchtimes for several years. Any consultation with any of the prominent DJ's of that scene at the time, will confirm that. In fact collectively the Jazz Funk scene trumpeted the importance of new Releases, to a level which actually caused considerable friction with some Northern Soul fans, but that's another chapter.

As regards the 'across the board' music policy at the club you were referring to, thank you for confirming this, because it was absolutely as I expected and as such is not a fair representation of the specific question raised on this thread.

So yes, you have missed the point.

In the 80s, there was a 'warehouse' scene in London that preceeded 'Acid House, Rave' etc. The type of electic 'across the board Soul' music policy you are talking about was apparent in that scene and 60s Soul, hard funk, Jazz, latin and 80s contemporary tracks were played by DJ's to enthusiastic crowds who were basically out for a good night's clubbing and just wanted to dance their arse off to feelgood quality dance music. That scene was augmented in the South of England in places like Bournemouth and Southampton where DJ'S like SHAY, GRAHAM T and BOB POVEY provided similar soundtracks in a series of Nightclubs. It was a terrific scene and well popular with Soul fans of all the individual genres.

Thing is though - it was seperate from the actual defined 'Northern Soul Scene'. I thought that was what we were talking about here.

There is a distinct difference between the Northern Soul scene, where the tradition is for mid to uptempo 60s and 70s Soul sides which capture a certain essence identifiable with the label 'Northern Soul' an and across the board Soul Secene wherein there is music of every genre and period mixed up in a dance cocktail.

The debate as regards Northern Soul 'Oldies' and 'Newies' is a debate confined within the musical trends recognised as Northern Soul. To find a high quality 'Northern newie' is a completely different quest to finding a good Soul record of any genre which will slide in on a total 'across the board' policy. It is far, far harder too as I am sure there are a few on this site who could confirm.

If you are going to throw in every Black Music style that Soul has produced within the last 40 years, you are talking about a different subject. The Northern Soul Scene was never about that and it never will be. So in fact you are discussing a different scene.

Interesting post.

[Guest proudlove]

Interesting post.

Very good post.

[Phil Shields]

Well, if it's a class thing....... Let's just change 'Mum' for 'Dad' and call 'em Steptoes!

BRILLIANT

[Guest James Trouble]

Very good post.

That's an even better post, but not as good as this one.

Edited September 29, 2009 by James Trouble

[Mal C]

Blimey, this thread is a bit full on really; personally I've past caring what gets spun where and whether he or she listens to oldies or newies or funk or Norvern or whatever. I simply buy what I concider to be good, what ever that maybe, and expect when I go out to hear the same approach, if its an oldies night then so be it, if its some thing that 's new to my ears, and I think its not all that, well there you go...

That said two tunes from Butch at the 100 club Anni, that John Bowie alt version and one he announced as something that was big down here in the late 8ts.. anybody? well if I keep hearing tunes like that, i'm a F***** happy man...!!

They are all oldies...........

Mal.C.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Mal.C.

[Wrongcrowd]

Travelling in reverse gear...

Firstly, I have in no way 'failed to appreciate' anything about the Jazz Funk scene. I have simply repeated a quote from CHRIS HILL regarding the cultural

status of the scene and how it represented a tradition going back to original MODS dancing to BRAND NEW 60s Soul records. I.E 'Up to date', 'Utra-Modern' if you like.

Thanks for putting me right on the difference between new and old music......

As far as the music was concerned, I went to a lot of the top Jazz Funk venues/Caister Weekenders etc and although there was a handful of older records mixed in (sometimes in a novelty fashion as in the case of 'My baby just cares for me' NINA SIMONE), I can asurre you that the accent of that scene was primarily and firlmly on NEW RELEASES especially those in the 12 inch import variety.

This was reflected in both the DJ's club playlists and the radio shows such AS ROBBIE VINCENT'S saturday show which ran at Sunday lunchtimes for several years. Any consultation with any of the prominent DJ's of that scene at the time, will confirm that. In fact collectively the Jazz Funk scene trumpeted the importance of new Releases, to a level which actually caused considerable friction with some Northern Soul fans, but that's another chapter.

Thanks again, but I really don't need you to explain Robbie Vincent's music policy. I listened to his shows religiously....and contrary to your statement, he played new release soul full stop.....his shows were in no way limited to jazz-funk

As regards the 'across the board' music policy at the club you were referring to, thank you for confirming this, because it was absolutely as I expected and as such is not a fair representation of the specific question raised on this thread.

So yes, you have missed the point.

Oh really, I've missed the point have I...............so explain to me how it was that the "Northern" scene that I grew up with played far more than what is now so conveniently labelled as "Northern" by you and others on this site......

In the 80s, there was a 'warehouse' scene in London that preceeded 'Acid House, Rave' etc. The type of electic 'across the board Soul' music policy you are talking about was apparent in that scene and 60s Soul, hard funk, Jazz, latin and 80s contemporary tracks were played by DJ's to enthusiastic crowds who were basically out for a good night's clubbing and just wanted to dance their arse off to feelgood quality dance music. That scene was augmented in the South of England in places like Bournemouth and Southampton where DJ'S like SHAY, GRAHAM T and BOB POVEY provided similar soundtracks in a series of Nightclubs. It was a terrific scene and well popular with Soul fans of all the individual genres.

Thing is though - it was seperate from the actual defined 'Northern Soul Scene'. I thought that was what we were talking about here.

Would that be the definition that's easiest to pigeon hole.....classic 4 to the floor 60's.......

There is a distinct difference between the Northern Soul scene, where the tradition is for mid to uptempo 60s and 70s Soul sides which capture a certain essence identifiable with the label 'Northern Soul' an and across the board Soul Secene wherein there is music of every genre and period mixed up in a dance cocktail.

The debate as regards Northern Soul 'Oldies' and 'Newies' is a debate confined within the musical trends recognised as Northern Soul. To find a high quality 'Northern newie' is a completely different quest to finding a good Soul record of any genre which will slide in on a total 'across the board' policy. It is far, far harder too as I am sure there are a few on this site who could confirm.

If you are going to throw in every Black Music style that Soul has produced within the last 40 years, you are talking about a different subject. The Northern Soul Scene was never about that and it never will be. So in fact you are discussing a different scene.

If you can honestly make a statement like this.....then you never truly appreciated what the Northern Soul Scene has been about.......it has always been about every black music style..it's just that it's too easy to ignore every other style that's contributed to the scene over the years...

Northern = Uptempo 60''s dance soul only.....give me a break

[Guest Byrney]

I think this is exactly why I used the word hysteria. That last paragraph is incredibly convoluted and almost impossible to address. Who actually are 'the nostalgia scene' whom you now seem to be addressing as a collective definable entity in their own right rather than 'events' or 'promotions'.

The term Nostalgia Scene is one I picked up from Key Roberts on here. Going on memory its his key target segment which celebrates a limited number of records and relives 'the glory years'. That simple, thought it fits like a glove.

[Guest]

you should have been at dewsbury town hall (baggy pants brigade ?) for gibbys set , great stuff.

iv been to an event every week for the last year , sometimes three in one weekend and i have to say i love and attend both "scenes" ( but not stoke ).

to put it bluntly id say the "nostalgia" scene is more of a dancers scene and the "progressive" scene is more of a collector / social scene .

some people work hard all week and all they want to do is dance away their everyday stress and worry . i dont know why some people on here constantly put the "baggy pants brigade" down ? at least they dance !. iv been to some venues (70%men ) where 60% of punters just sit or stand around pontificating allnight within inches ! of people trying to dance , very off putting for some dancers especially when its a tiny floor

personally i prefer the music played at " prog" venues , but often iv found these venues dont really cater for the dancers and are held in small clubs or function rooms and are often let down by the condition / postition/size of the dancefloor .

one last thing

does it really matter if someone has been into northern soul for ten minutes , ten years or 30 years ? . stop being such snobs and remmember its dance music for everyday people to let their hair down on a weekend its not rocket science

Brilliant post. Get it babe!

[Guest sarahleen]

i think some promoters forget that its a DANCE scene . so many times "nostheads" ( ) have said to me that they love the "proghead"( ) music but feel intimidated at the venues by the (percieved) snob aspect ( as seen on here sometimes ) . it might be hard for a dj to fill a big dancefloor (or so he thinks ! ) but to a dancer the bigger the floor the less intimidating it is to dance on .

what about a great dancehall like dewsbury or brighouse playing oldies up to around 1.00 ish then gradually segueing into something like the stuff played at burnley (awesome) till dawn . that way the baggy pants brigade might stick around and relalise just what theyr missing and we can all be one big happy family again , maybe or maybe not lol

Edited September 29, 2009 by sarahleen

[Patto]

you should have been at dewsbury town hall (baggy pants brigade ?) for gibbys set , great stuff.

iv been to an event every week for the last year , sometimes three in one weekend and i have to say i love and attend both "scenes" ( but not stoke ).

to put it bluntly id say the "nostalgia" scene is more of a dancers scene and the "progressive" scene is more of a collector / social scene .

some people work hard all week and all they want to do is dance away their everyday stress and worry . i dont know why some people on here constantly put the "baggy pants brigade" down ? at least they dance !. iv been to some venues (70%men ) where 60% of punters just sit or stand around pontificating allnight within inches ! of people trying to dance , very off putting for some dancers especially when its a tiny floor

personally i prefer the music played at " prog" venues , but often iv found these venues dont really cater for the dancers and are held in small clubs or function rooms and are often let down by the condition / postition/size of the dancefloor .

one last thing

does it really matter if someone has been into northern soul for ten minutes , ten years or 30 years ? . stop being such snobs and remmember its dance music for everyday people to let their hair down on a weekend its not rocket science

Hi Sarahleen,I to went to Dewsbury and think the place has great promise if the rare room is ditched and some underplayed quality sounds are played in the main room.I agree with most of your posts. Just like you i love to dance to forget about the crap and stress i left behind at the entry door,but like loads of soulies i know to fully enjoy the dancing experience you have to be enthused and motivated by the track your on the floor to,you have to feel it inside.It gets harder and harder to rush to the floor to dance to the same tracks you hear over and over again.Put simply it gets boring

This is the point i think peple are trying to make whereby the nostalgists have retreated into a box of a couple of hundred safe oldies that get played week in week out at lots of venues.I have my faves and will dance to them but sometimes i just don't understand how some people can go through the soul equivalent of groundhog day for years on end.I have been to oldies nights when fantastic Wigan sounds have been played and cleared the floor,the same records that used to cram the floors back in the casino heyday are dismissed.As for the fantastic Stafford sounds well i have been told by some that they are not true Northern soul it is that attitude that is todays depressing reality.

There are imaginative progressive venues out there who do have fantastic oldies playlists and do have good dancefloors,Crofton and York are two that spring to mind,but on the whole you are correct when you say that the nostalga venues are usually bigger/better attended.

Its sad but i think the scene is splitting into separate camps and the retro fancy dress is not helping it just causes cliques that can seem offputting to new attendees

I don't think people are being snobs,it's not just dance music,it's more complicated than rocket science,always has been a very important part of peoples lives and i don't think anyone just 10 mins on the scene could grasp that.

This has been a brill thread maybe a bit to intense at times but great to read thanks to IMBERBOY for getting it started

[Guest Byrney]

i think some promoters forget that its a DANCE scene . so many times "nostheads" ( ) have said to me that they love the "proghead"( ) music but feel intimidated at the venues by the (percieved) snob aspect ( as seen on here sometimes ) . it might be hard for a dj to fill a big dancefloor (or so he thinks ! ) but to a dancer the bigger the floor the less intimidating it is to dance on .

what about a great dancehall like dewsbury or brighouse playing oldies up to around 1.00 ish then gradually segueing into something like the stuff played at burnley (awesome) till dawn . that way the baggy pants brigade might stick around and relalise just what theyr missing and we can all be one big happy family again , maybe or maybe not lol

But what about Lifeline Sarahleen. Large venue with a big - full dancefloor. Puts the theory that events other than Nostalgia ones are small on its tush.

Do like your idea of fitting tunes other than the usual 200 or so into a nostalgia night - but would it work? Or would the DJ, as some have posted on here before, have a mob of angries shouting get this rare sH17e off. Amazing how they can tell its rare by the sound

Edited September 29, 2009 by Byrney

[good angel]

baggy pants brigade

I love that term,Sarah

Shall we call them BPB, for short

Kev,once a BPB,many years ago.

Edited September 29, 2009 by good angel

[Guest]

CHORLEYSOUL SAID:

As far as the music was concerned, I went to a lot of the top Jazz Funk venues/Caister Weekenders etc and although there was a handful of older records mixed in (sometimes in a novelty fashion as in the case of 'My baby just cares for me' NINA SIMONE), I can asurre you that the accent of that scene was primarily and firmly on NEW RELEASES especially those in the 12 inch import variety.

WRONGCROWD SAID:

Thanks again, but I really don't need you to explain Robbie Vincent's music policy. I listened to his shows religiously....and contrary to your statement, he played new release soul full stop.....his shows were in no way limited to jazz-funk

CHORLEYSOUL SAYS:

Sorry, but you are talking absolute bollocks there. I have not in any way excluded 'Soul' records from ROBBIE or CHRIS HILL'S playlists. Of course there were Soul records played on that scene and on the radio shows, 'Shame' clearly being the biggest 'anthemic' example. There was a mix-up of genres from almost straight Jazz fusion to disco funk to Soul, but the factor that all this shared was that it was PRIMARILY a music scene based on contemporary, up to date new releases, the term 'pre-release' adding even more supposed kudos to a record's status.

That is my point and the one laboured by CHRIS HILL at the time. I think if you read your own statement back VERY SLOWLY, you will see a glaring contradiction in the text i.e 'he played new release Soul non stop....his shows were in no way limited to jazz funk'. Pray please point out where I said they were in the relevant paassage included here? But, you could not have been listening that religiously or you would recall that there was a segment of those shows which featured new back to back Jazz Funk tracks for about 15-20 minutes without intrusion...Remember that now? It most certainly was not 'Soul' non stop as you describe. A late mate of mine actually used to take records down to the studio for ROBBIE to play and those shows featured a cross section of a wide range of musical styles that were CURRENT at the time.

Style wise, everything from STANLEY CLARKE, RAHNI HARRIS to CHARLES EARLAND to SPYRA GYRA and ABYSINTHE, to BILL SUMMERS to McFADDEN AND WHITEHEAD and MILLIE JACKSON was actually featured and describing it as a non-stop Soul show is stretching it to put it mildly. I remember a Scottish Northern Soul mate of mine from Norwich listening to the show at the time and he hated it! He'd been going to strictly Northern do's for 6 years at that time - 1978 - and it was not in any way his idea of 'Soul'!

WRONGCROWD SAID:

Oh really, I've missed the point have I...............so explain to me how it was that the "Northern" scene that I grew up with played far more than what is now so conveniently labelled as "Northern" by you and others on this site......

CHORLEYSOUL SAYS:

I think you are struggling here, because in fact I have not made any specific references to records other than a stylistic definition as follows 'mid-tempo to uptempto 60s and 70s Soul sides which capture a certain essence identifiable with the label Northern Soul'. I think that a hell of a lot of people would recognise that as a reasonbaly fair encapsulation of something that is actually quite difficult to define.

CHORLEYSOUL SAID:

In the 80s, there was a 'warehouse' scene in London that preceeded 'Acid House, Rave' etc. The type of electic 'across the board Soul' music policy you are talking about was apparent in that scene and 60s Soul, hard funk, Jazz, latin and 80s contemporary tracks were played by DJ's to enthusiastic crowds who were basically out for a good night's clubbing and just wanted to dance their arse off to feelgood quality dance music. That scene was augmented in the South of England in places like Bournemouth and Southampton where DJ'S like SHAY, GRAHAM T and BOB POVEY provided similar soundtracks in a series of Nightclubs. It was a terrific scene and well popular with Soul fans of all the individual genres.

Thing is though - it was seperate from the actual defined 'Northern Soul Scene'. I thought that was what we were talking about here.

Would that be the definition that's easiest to pigeon hole.....classic 4 to the floor 60's.......

CHORLEYSOUL SAID:

No that is a cheap shot and based in an insult to my intelligence. In fact, musically, there is alot of scope between ROBERT PARKER 'Caught you in a lie; THE CHARADES 'Keys to my happiness', FRANCES NERO 'Keep on loving me', VOICES OF EAST HARLEM 'Cashing in', PARLIAMENTS 'I can feel the ice melting', BOBBY KLINE, GENE TOONES, PAULINE SHIVERS, THE INTRUDERS, MEL BRITT, BOBBY BLAND, THE IMPRESSIONS (60S AND 70S), HOWARD TATE, RONNIE McNEIR and BOBBY WOMACK also in both decades, to name just a few brief well known artists and records beloved on the Northern Soul scene.

Oh indeed no, Northern Soul most certainly has always been a lot more than what you are defining as 'on the 4s 60s'.

CHORLEYSOUL SAID:

The debate as regards Northern Soul 'Oldies' and 'Newies' is a debate confined within the musical trends recognised as Northern Soul. To find a high quality 'Northern newie' is a completely different quest to finding a good Soul record of any genre which will slide in on a total 'across the board' policy. It is far, far harder too as I am sure there are a few on this site who could confirm.

If you are going to throw in every Black Music style that Soul has produced within the last 40 years, you are talking about a different subject. The Northern Soul Scene was never about that and it never will be. So in fact you are discussing a different scene.

WRONGCROWD SAID:

If you can honestly make a statement like this.....then you never truly appreciated what the Northern Soul Scene has been about.......it has always been about every black music style..it's just that it's too easy to ignore every other style that's contributed to the scene over the years...

CHORLEYSOUL SAYS:

I think I've picked up a reasonable grasp since 1974 and I do recall TIM ASHIBENDE defining all this brilliantly in a conversation at Cleethorpes several years ago when he talked about that factor that makes a record a 'northern soul' record other than just a soul record that could be popular on any scene.

Personally I maintain your stance is one that supports an absolutely 'open' umbrella of records, many of which would contain little or none of the essence TIM defined that evening. That stance is always easy and of course, usually adopted by those who think that the term 'progressive' raises them above others in terms of relevance and indeed intellect. In the real world there are still thousands of people who want to hear something of that essence which they recognise from a musical form they have loved and cherished for decades. If that leaves them open to mockery, it is a sad indictment and certainly far more of a negative aspect than a few harmless baggy trouser wearers.

WRONGCROWD SAID:

Northern = Uptempo 60''s dance soul only.....give me a break

CHORLEYSOUL SAYS:

God knows why he is saying that because it is not present anywhere in the previous discussuion. Once again, the tactics of convienant distortion, in order to match an agenda.

Edited September 29, 2009 by chorleysoul

[barney]

there seems to be a lot of venemous ridicule posted on here towards the baggy trouser (nostalgia) brigsade by it seems progressive upfront posters,

there is a certain paradox here.

that is in my view strange , why is it not ok to wear baggy trousers and listen only to music from a certain period,,

but to a man or woman most people on here insist on their music being delivered on obselete outmoded no longer produced technology

ie antiquated vinyl discs

Edited September 29, 2009 by barney

[Guest]

there seems to be a lot of venemous ridicule posted on here towards the baggy trouser (nostalgia) brigsade by it seems progressive upfront posters,

there is a certain paradox here.

that is in my view strange , why is it not ok to wear baggy trousers and listen only to music from a certain period,,

but to a man or woman most people on here insist on their music being delivered on obselete outmoded no longer produced technology

ie antiquated vinyl discs

Yes mate, quite strange that is'nt it? Quite astute too! The truth is also that if you took a bunch of guys from the cutting edge, up to the moment CONTEMPORARY R/B/HIP HOP scene, i.e the one where people go to ultra-smart clubs, dress up to the nines and where both visual and audio state of the art technology combine as part of the clubbing 'experience' - into one of our supposed 'progressive, upfront' venues, they'd think they'd walked into a Doctor Who episode! Which kind of dovetails perfectly with your observation about venomous ridicule.

Edited September 30, 2009 by chorleysoul

[funkyfeet]

It's the word NORTHERN that's the problem, back in the 70's it was quite easy to describe a northern record (Uptempo, a failed Motown type of sound) Now after 40 years we have so many different styles it confuses the issue, but the one thing that will always be the same is that there will always be a rare soul scene, maybe not as we know it, but it will be there. I bet kids today all over the world are collecting current and 2k releases, which will in turn become the rarities of tomorrow, and their thirst for similar sounds to what they collect now will just be the same as ours, in ten to twenty years time, and the same debates will go on as well, it's human nature.

[Guest James Trouble]

Good stuff, again. Hard to argue with that.

[KevH]

ame='chorleysoul' date='29 September 2009 - 08:29 PM' timestamp='1254248943' post='1161585']

Good stuff, again. Hard to argue with that.

but lets give it a try.....

[Guest James Trouble]

but lets give it a try.....

I want to agree with Cliff, really I do, but Chorley's angle makes me question Cliff's reasoning.

It comes back to the "scene lover or soul lover" thread, no?

Cliff is saying "I'm a soul lover and I've been to Barcelona where there are kids. I know what's going on, I'm progressive and cutting edge and better than northern soul oldies fans who have hijacked the scene." Which may be true, I dunno? Obviously Cliff is quite excited about a club full of young people dancing to his broad range of soul tunes he spun which perhaps do not receive the same reaction on the UK scene, but I'm not sure one night is solid evidence to base his argument on, certainly not as hard as what Chorley presents.

Cliff seems to be torn between a scene love and a soul love, and he doesn't really know where his heart lies? The shackles of the scene obviously frustrate him and his recent fix in Euroland probably adds to that frustration.

Chorley's stark reality and home truths are harder hitting them Cliff's somewhat weak argument. Hard to pick Chorely up on any points he's making. But perhaps if he went to places like Zurich, Oslo, Malmo, Barcelona, Helsinki and so many other hubs of soul music around the world and gosh horror Dex in Brixton or Soul Rev' Chelmsford or Shoreditch and every Friday and Saturday night at Madam Jo Jos he may be more likely to see where Cliff is coming from? As there are certainly dedicated young soul lovers at these place and it is very liberating to be playing records to a crowd of music lovers without the often ridiculous shackles of the northern scene.

Edited September 30, 2009 by James Trouble