Soul Fan Or Scene Fan?

[Jumpinjoan]

What about the Soul Source fan?

[wolfie66]

And I know where you all live joan

[Paul-s]

Perhaps then you can explain this patronising twaddle

"I actually know from travelling and going out that there is only a very small group of people who travel regularly and are truly inspired by music...FACT!"

Im not that sure but it would appear from reading his posts that lots of us on here were inspired by the music whilst Mr Sadot was dabbling in the punk scene. And now some of us don't fit his template?

A lot of people during 75- 78 at nighters were into Punk aswell. Depends on your social background i guess. For me and friends it was a socio political movement primarily and offered a slight chance at expressing discontent. Same spirit, but not music, as the Northern scene of that time....

I like a lot of music, funk, jazz, indie.....im particular, but i cant say i dont like ANYTHING! That would be arrogant and patronising to those thousands of artists i haven't heard...it would be twaddle! The same as if i declared i dont like modern or r & B or blah, blah, blah.

My musical development echoed my personal and spiritual development....hence, as a mature adult, i dont want to hear some blue eyed shite from Wigan, just because i danced to it as a naieve and inexperienced 15 year old..my soul has grown up and matured!

You seem to think if someone listens to music, (punk, funk, hip hop) not within your self defined..but obviously narrow, soul sphere, they are not into soul? Bizarre point of view! I have listened to soul and collected it non-stop for 33 years, so how does that figure then? Because i also listened to punk or whatever, i was a traitor.. what patronising twaddle!

And, I DO actually know from travelling and dancing that there are only a small group of people who love to hear the music...fresh, exciting, soulful, semi known, played...and dance to it...AS WE DID ORIGINALLY! FACT.

At most venues this clears the floor or elicits complaints.

Now, im sure you are different, but obviously one has to answer the original question on a general basis. I look forward to witnessing your pioneer attitude when im out.........i need inspiration...

[Paul-s]

Ady C, your punk background, enough to drive a man to drink, I am off for a bucket of gin to forget that horrible music and the image of you pogoing, poshly.......

[Guest]

A lot of people during 75- 78 at nighters were into Punk aswell. Depends on your social background i guess. For me and friends it was a socio political movement primarily and offered a slight chance at expressing discontent. Same spirit, but not music, as the Northern scene of that time.... I like a lot of music, funk, jazz, indie.....im particular, but i cant say i dont like ANYTHING! That would be arrogant and patronising to those thousands of artists i haven't heard...it would be twaddle! The same as if i declared i dont like modern or r & B or blah, blah, blah. My musical development echoed my personal and spiritual development....hence, as a mature adult, i dont want to hear some blue eyed shite from Wigan, just because i danced to it as a naieve and inexperienced 15 year old..my soul has grown up and matured! You seem to think if someone listens to music, (punk, funk, hip hop) not within your self defined..but obviously narrow, soul sphere, they are not into soul? Bizarre point of view! I have listened to soul and collected it non-stop for 33 years, so how does that figure then? Because i also listened to punk or whatever, i was a traitor.. what patronising twaddle! And, I DO actually know from travelling and dancing that there are only a small group of people who love to hear the music...fresh, exciting, soulful, semi known, played...and dance to it...AS WE DID ORIGINALLY! FACT. At most venues this clears the floor or elicits complaints. Now, im sure you are different, but obviously one has to answer the original question on a general basis. I look forward to witnessing your pioneer attitude when im out.........i need inspiration...

Like you and ADY, I was also a punk from 77 onwards til about 82, but it never interfered with my love for Northern Soul which pre-dated that by some years...I ligged on THE CLASH tours and met guys from all over the UK and very many of them, were in fact Soulboys who just realised that there were social issues which people like Mick and Joe and others were trying to address. Much as I loved - and still love - the Soul scene, it has never been a scene addressing people's actual lives and the system which controls our lives and it was that which attracted me to Punk...I did find my shitty Council estate and its Tower Blocks profoundly depressing and uninspiring and THE CLASH voiced that for me....In actual fact, my Punk mates used to take the piss out of me because I would turn up for parties clutching piles of Motown and Northern records, but in fact many of them had wide listening tastes and readily accepted my insistence on playing THE ELGINS straight after THE RAMONES - and why not? In fact the whole Punk/New Romantic thing was awash with people who had been Soul fans previously be it Southern Funk or Northern and some of them were amongst the hippest guys I've ever known...As the years went by and my energy for youthful rebellion subsided, i.e THE CLASH broke up and reality dawned...I simply reversed back into my original lane and carried on with my Soul searchings. Those of us who travelled these paths understand how the diversity has actually enriched our understanding of 'scenes' and youth culture in general, although there will always be those who think they 'kept the faith' in a superior manner. PS - And I always thought the line in 'White Man in Hammersmith Palais' that celebrates 'the all-night drug prowling wolf' was written just for me!!! I once told JOE STRUMMER that and explained about the Northern scene and he loved it! Edited September 17, 2009 by chorleysoul

[Paul-s]

Like you and ADY, I was also a punk from 77 onwards til about 82, but it never interfered with my love for Northern Soul which pre-dated that by some years...I ligged on THE CLASH tours and met guys from all over the UK and very many of them, were in fact Soulboys who just realised that there were social issues which people like Mick and Joe and others were trying to address. Much as I loved - and still love - the Soul scene, it has never been a scene addressing people's actual lives and the system which controls our lives and it was that which attracted me to Punk...I did find my shitty Council estate and its Tower Blocks profoundly depressing and uninspiring and THE CLASH voiced that for me....In actual fact, my Punk mates used to take the piss out of me because I would turn up for parties clutching piles of Motown and Northern records, but in fact many of them had wide listening tastes and readily accepted my insistence on playing THE ELGINS straight after THE RAMONES - and why not? In fact the whole Punk/New Romantic thing was awash with people who had been Soul fans previously be it Southern Funk or Northern and some of them were amongst the hippest guys I've ever known...As the years went by and my energy for youthful rebellion subsided, i.e THE CLASH broke up and reality dawned...I simply reversed back into my original lane and carried on with my Soul searchings. Those of us who travelled these paths understand how the diversity has actually enrichened our understanding of 'scenes' and youth culture in general, although there will always be those who think they 'kept the faith' in a superior manner.

Well put!

[Modernsoulsucks]

I was completely unaware that "a lot of people" were into punk and Northern during that period. Certainly no one I knew was [OK maybe Godz],because as you say musically they were poles apart. As a 15 year old Im sure it was an opportunity to express discontent and feel part of a movement that would change society for the better. To a 23 year old, as I was then, it was the same old rock music carefully hyped and exploited which attracted a bunch of boozed-up louts. Maybe in the beginning it wasn't like that but I couldn't really get past that flirtation with wearing Nazi regalia as a fashion statement without a moment's thought as to whom it could offend.

We are different ages so I don't have your baggage about "white pop shite" at Wigan. There were very few I liked and I've got maybe Paul Anka and a couple more. You seem to have the need to atone for that period in your life by embarking on a crusade now. I didn't denigrate anybody's involvement in the scene but again you come back to this small group of people who are doing it your way which is of course the right way. And surprisingly I do agree up to a point that without fresh exciting sounds the original ethos would be lost. I also agree that to hear those sounds the best place is in a club loud on a good system. The only provisos I have is that not every sound is fresh and exciting to everybody as tastes differ and that those who do attend clubs regularly that stick to a safer format are not somehow second class. Their contribution is as valid as yours. You are all still part of the same scene, albeit fragmented, and both play a part in making the whole. I guess DDA and Lowton would be an example.

Going back to the original question I don't feel less of a soul fan than you because I no longer attend. I don't feel the need to pioneer. I did turn up a few 45s in my time that went on to be staples but Im now happy to collect and still get to hear good records new to me that I like. I actually have a pretty wide taste [don't judge a book by it's cover] including hip-hop, funk and reggae. I've always thought that if you restrict yourself to only one form of music you tend to lose your ear.

I was actually [thru my then girlfriend] dj-ing around Manchester in early 90's playing hip-hop, Jazz,rare groove and funk. It was when I turned up with her for a spot and they thought I was her taxi driver that I knew I'd made the right choice in taking a backseat.

ROD

[Mark Bicknell]

THEN WHY POST

Good point lol

Regards - Mark

[Ady Croasdell]

I was completely unaware that "a lot of people" were into punk and Northern during that period. Certainly no one I knew was [OK maybe Godz],because as you say musically they were poles apart. As a 15 year old Im sure it was an opportunity to express discontent and feel part of a movement that would change society for the better. To a 23 year old, as I was then, it was the same old rock music carefully hyped and exploited which attracted a bunch of boozed-up louts. Maybe in the beginning it wasn't like that but I couldn't really get past that flirtation with wearing Nazi regalia as a fashion statement without a moment's thought as to whom it could offend.

We are different ages so I don't have your baggage about "white pop shite" at Wigan. There were very few I liked and I've got maybe Paul Anka and a couple more. You seem to have the need to atone for that period in your life by embarking on a crusade now. I didn't denigrate anybody's involvement in the scene but again you come back to this small group of people who are doing it your way which is of course the right way. And surprisingly I do agree up to a point that without fresh exciting sounds the original ethos would be lost. I also agree that to hear those sounds the best place is in a club loud on a good system. The only provisos I have is that not every sound is fresh and exciting to everybody as tastes differ and that those who do attend clubs regularly that stick to a safer format are not somehow second class. Their contribution is as valid as yours. You are all still part of the same scene, albeit fragmented, and both play a part in making the whole. I guess DDA and Lowton would be an example.

Going back to the original question I don't feel less of a soul fan than you because I no longer attend. I don't feel the need to pioneer. I did turn up a few 45s in my time that went on to be staples but Im now happy to collect and still get to hear good records new to me that I like. I actually have a pretty wide taste [don't judge a book by it's cover] including hip-hop, funk and reggae. I've always thought that if you restrict yourself to only one form of music you tend to lose your ear.

I was actually [thru my then girlfriend] dj-ing around Manchester in early 90's playing hip-hop, Jazz,rare groove and funk. It was when I turned up with her for a spot and they thought I was her taxi driver that I knew I'd made the right choice in taking a backseat.

ROD

I agree with there not being many punks around Wigan in 1977, I only remember Chris Harrop and me, and I agree that musically they are dissimilar but the energy and buzz of the best of them had the same energising effect on me. Punks were big on speed, though I'd just about stopped by then and the fast beats of both music styles meant that Northern stompers would have made a better punk musical relation than the politically motivated choice of reggae.

Edited September 17, 2009 by ady croasdell

[Modernsoulsucks]

Thanks for that Ady. After Chorleysoul's intervention I was beginning to doubt my recollections.

I can see the similarities obviously but by '77 the NS scene wasn't really a "youth cult" in the same way as punk. I don't know what date you'd say NS started but say '68/9 so by then it's 9 years old. If you got on it at 16 you're then 25. Married maybe, responsibilities/independent living, working etc. Youthful rebellion was pretty far away in the past for me.

I know we then had a big influx of younger people going to Wigan in 75/6 [sorry dates are not set in stone] so Im guessing these would have been the audience that could have gravitated toward punk but went for NS instead. Or in a few cases both.

Think I remember Chris Harrop. From Wales? Wasn't he older and shoulda known better.

ROD

Edited September 17, 2009 by modernsoulsucks

[Ady Croasdell]

Thanks for that Ady. After Chorleysoul's intervention I was beginning to doubt my recollections.

I can see the similarities obviously but by '77 the NS scene wasn't really a "youth cult" in the same way as punk. I don't know what date you'd say NS started but say '68/9 so by then it's 9 years old. If you got on it at 16 you're then 25. Married maybe, responsibilities/independent living, working etc. Youthful rebellion was pretty far away in the past for me.

I know we then had a big influx of younger people going to Wigan in 75/6 [sorry dates are not set in stone] so Im guessing these would have been the audience that could have gravitated toward punk but went for NS instead. Or in a few cases both.

Think I remember Chris Harrop. From Wales? Wasn't he older and shoulda known better.

ROD

Chris was acting like a kid like myself, I think it's called emotionally retarded or something now; basically too much whooping it up and not wanting to grow up. At 24 Chris and I would have been some of the oldest swingers on the punk scene. He was from Flint like Russ Taylor and had many a rare record in his day.

Most punks got into it 77/78 and it probably took a lot of potential Northern kids away from it then. In fact one of the reasons people took to Northern in the 75/76 period was because there was no alternative rock/pop scene.

[KevH]

And of course on the punk "scene" there was a lot of ska ,reggae,dub being played.In fact the music went hand in hand at a lot of concerts.Like you Paul and Ady,did the same thing.Thumbed it round the country to watch bands.

Would someone like to start a Punk Thread?.Memories of the time.?

[Barry]

There was a regular group of punks from Warrington that used to get on the 602 bus when I used to go to Wigan.

[Paul-s]

Going back to the original question I don't feel less of a soul fan than you because I no longer attend. I don't feel the need to pioneer. I did turn up a few 45s in my time that went on to be staples but Im now happy to collect and still get to hear good records new to me that I like. I actually have a pretty wide taste [don't judge a book by it's cover] including hip-hop, funk and reggae. I've always thought that if you restrict yourself to only one form of music you tend to lose your ear.

I was actually [thru my then girlfriend] dj-ing around Manchester in early 90's playing hip-hop, Jazz,rare groove and funk. It was when I turned up with her for a spot and they thought I was her taxi driver that I knew I'd made the right choice in taking a backseat.

ROD

[Guest]

I was completely unaware that "a lot of people" were into punk and Northern during that period. Certainly no one I knew was [OK maybe Godz],because as you say musically they were poles apart. As a 15 year old Im sure it was an opportunity to express discontent and feel part of a movement that would change society for the better. To a 23 year old, as I was then, it was the same old rock music carefully hyped and exploited which attracted a bunch of boozed-up louts. Maybe in the beginning it wasn't like that but I couldn't really get past that flirtation with wearing Nazi regalia as a fashion statement without a moment's thought as to whom it could offend.

We are different ages so I don't have your baggage about "white pop shite" at Wigan. There were very few I liked and I've got maybe Paul Anka and a couple more. You seem to have the need to atone for that period in your life by embarking on a crusade now. I didn't denigrate anybody's involvement in the scene but again you come back to this small group of people who are doing it your way which is of course the right way. And surprisingly I do agree up to a point that without fresh exciting sounds the original ethos would be lost. I also agree that to hear those sounds the best place is in a club loud on a good system. The only provisos I have is that not every sound is fresh and exciting to everybody as tastes differ and that those who do attend clubs regularly that stick to a safer format are not somehow second class. Their contribution is as valid as yours. You are all still part of the same scene, albeit fragmented, and both play a part in making the whole. I guess DDA and Lowton would be an example.

Going back to the original question I don't feel less of a soul fan than you because I no longer attend. I don't feel the need to pioneer. I did turn up a few 45s in my time that went on to be staples but Im now happy to collect and still get to hear good records new to me that I like. I actually have a pretty wide taste [don't judge a book by it's cover] including hip-hop, funk and reggae. I've always thought that if you restrict yourself to only one form of music you tend to lose your ear.

I was actually [thru my then girlfriend] dj-ing around Manchester in early 90's playing hip-hop, Jazz,rare groove and funk. It was when I turned up with her for a spot and they thought I was her taxi driver that I knew I'd made the right choice in taking a backseat.

ROD

Busy at present but will respond to this posting - in detail - tonight. You are way off beam ROD.

[Barry]

Busy at present but will respond to this posting - in detail - tonight. You are way off beam ROD.

Looking forward to this.

[jocko]

Perhaps then you can explain this patronising twaddle

"I actually know from travelling and going out that there is only a very small group of people who travel regularly and are truly inspired by music...FACT!"

I would explain it by using the full quote rather than selectively quoting half the statement, this was

What scene? There is no scene, just a lot of people who can no longer be bothered travelling and so have started their own local nights where they can have a drink and play a few tunes with their mates!

The will and energy no longer exists for a scene. I actually know from travelling and going out that there is only a very small group of people who travel regularly and are truly inspired by music...FACT!

I think the first part of this clearly indicates he is not talking about people who do not go out, i.e. you and me by the sounds of it, but instead the people who consider themselves part of the/ Northern scene in their local British Legion style nights. It is a view I agree with strongly, the increasing number of same old local soul nights has helped kill off large swathes of the progressive Northern scene, and that is the only bit I have ever been interested in. It was actually you recently who summed it up by saying the debate should be about new/fresh sounds rather than the misguided OVO debate people always get into. I think Paul is saying something similar but saying it from the heart as he always does, almost reminds me of many people in the 80's who certainly wouldn't have been derided for having such views. Can you really debate the above full sentence, and to be fair its not Paul who are saying these people are not soulies, just that this means there is no coherent scene, a view I completely subscribe to.

I should say I haven't spoken to Paul about this and therefore the above are my assumptions, I am certainly not speaking on his behalf.

Im not that sure but it would appear from reading his posts that lots of us on here were inspired by the music whilst Mr Sadot was dabbling in the punk scene. And now some of us don't fit his template?

Along with Mr C and a number of others it would appear, I was probably still into T-Rex and Bowie then as was too young to have discovered the all encompasssing dark and delicious world of all night dances and the music that went with it. And this is the second point, based on Barry's initial heading, I thought the question was about do you have to be a Soul fan to be a Northern fan, and the resounding answer is not, in fact for many on here the connection is minimal, I don't have a problem with that, people like Pete S who are completely upfront they are Northern fans first and foremost, whatever that may be, but I do have a problem with people that listen to soul related (mostly loosely) dance music that has more in common with Pavrotti than Womack who then tell me the music I like, just because it is not Northern, is not soul, its bizarre, uninformed and an insult to the people that created this music, something I care about passionately, and I hope that makes me a soul snob, I am proud of that tag not ashamed like lots of people seem on here imply you should be. To me its all about quality control, which is what I think the point Flanny was making, another one I am completely in agreement with. And was why I made my comment.

Im also surprised you'd find it odd that the R&B crowd were not that interested in 70's and 80's or House and current R&B for that matter. Why would that lack question the validity of their vision. It's not my cuppa tea either but at least they have an ethos and don't water down the essence to gain the approval of outsiders.

Where did I refer to the R&B crowd, it was a general comment about people on Northern scene who are leaning towards earlier stuff in quest for something new, a pattern that has been repeated by new arrivals over the last 15 years IMO, although I would accept that is a bit of a generalisation on my part. Its about people who rave about a poor mans Roy Hamilton semi-soundalike (i.e, big voiced no soul) and declare themselves into soul but then say all Al Green is pop and Bobby Womack is disco. It's a weekly occurrence on here, people mistake a big voice for a soul singer. As I say above I have no problem with people being only into 60's soul , and have never actually said that, as long as they don't tell me what is soul in the wider genre.

For the record in my limited experience the "R&B crowd" that I know personally have a far better idea of the relationship between R&B and soul music being at least as picky as the pickiest soul snob on what makes a good R&B record, and most are fans of Black music, unlike large chunks of the Northern scene. (Except when they play Elvis, for which there is no forgiving.....).

Its interesting that you highlight they have an ethos and don't water it down as a positive, which is actually what Paul to me is talking about on the Northern scene but you find that a negative!

I have said to you before people like you deserve massive respect for what you did in discovering records on Northern scene, I am just mystified what there is to take exception in the statements about current scene. Todays world is the new look Northern world in my opinion, and its not as good, but lots of that is probably my personal apathy as well, and I am happy to admit that. I do respect what you say about not much being new to you, I am lucky enough not to be in that position and with my poor memory probably never will, which is why Lifeline, which in many ways is pushing boundaries in style as well as new music to me is the place to aim for, but only if you want those boundaries pushed..... just I am too apathetic to attend every one, which probably makes a SS fan that Joan is sticking up for thankfully!

I appreciate much of this response may now have been surpassed by later answers but I took ages typing this up this morning and as anyone who knows me knows, I am not good at knowing when to shut up

[Barry]

I am not good at knowing when to shut up

[Modernsoulsucks]

I do understand the point you're making but I don't think the scene ever was really all about youthful rebellion. It was purely the music, for me anyway. The allnighters and the "speed" obviously gave it a certain edge compared to a night at the local disco but I doubt we were in essence doing any different socially to others outside the scene. Im sure getting bladdered, having a ruckus and trying to cop-off was someone else's idea of teenage kicks and escaping the reality of a mundane job.

Whatever you felt then and reflect upon now it's only your personal interpretation of how it was, and you cannot expect 30 years on to feel the same excitement, at what was then a novel experience, and then turn around and say I've not changed but the scene has. We probably all look back through a golden mist. My own baggage is that I thought of it as a working class phenomena but now I feel Im slightly priced out, if you know what I mean. It's moved upmarket. However that doesn't mean I think the scene is rubbish or blame it for how it's evolved. The original idea is still there and as you say there are places where you can meet like-minded people. You take your enjoyment where you can.

Peace? Please don't tell me you were a hippy as well.

ROD

Edited September 17, 2009 by modernsoulsucks

[Modernsoulsucks]

Looking forward to this.

I'm not.

ROD

[Modernsoulsucks]

FFS Jocko, this isn't a reply but a dissertation. I type with one finger.

I was hopefully trying to answer Paul in the context of how I understood Barry's initial posting. Im not comfortable with the idea that somehow you need to travel to certain venues [Lifeline was mentioned]to be "truly inspired" by the music. Yes, the guys in the Legion having a drink with their mates is not how Paul sees the scene but I don't know how one can jump to the conclusion that they are somehow less committed to the music nor that they are somehow responsible for any failings in the "progressive" scene as you are now suggesting. Barry referred to an "integral" part and as such I see those people as no less entitled to call themselves "soulies" as anyone else being part of a shared experience but which can take many forms.

I will try and answer any other points but right now it's tea-time, Clare's home and it's must watch TV after that. Chorleysoul is gunning for me too so I may be under the bed.

ROD

[Guest]

I was completely unaware that "a lot of people" were into punk and Northern during that period. Certainly no one I knew was [OK maybe Godz],because as you say musically they were poles apart. As a 15 year old Im sure it was an opportunity to express discontent and feel part of a movement that would change society for the better. To a 23 year old, as I was then, it was the same old rock music carefully hyped and exploited which attracted a bunch of boozed-up louts. Maybe in the beginning it wasn't like that but I couldn't really get past that flirtation with wearing Nazi regalia as a fashion statement without a moment's thought as to whom it could offend.

We are different ages so I don't have your baggage about "white pop shite" at Wigan. There were very few I liked and I've got maybe Paul Anka and a couple more. You seem to have the need to atone for that period in your life by embarking on a crusade now. I didn't denigrate anybody's involvement in the scene but again you come back to this small group of people who are doing it your way which is of course the right way. And surprisingly I do agree up to a point that without fresh exciting sounds the original ethos would be lost. I also agree that to hear those sounds the best place is in a club loud on a good system. The only provisos I have is that not every sound is fresh and exciting to everybody as tastes differ and that those who do attend clubs regularly that stick to a safer format are not somehow second class. Their contribution is as valid as yours. You are all still part of the same scene, albeit fragmented, and both play a part in making the whole. I guess DDA and Lowton would be an example.

Going back to the original question I don't feel less of a soul fan than you because I no longer attend. I don't feel the need to pioneer. I did turn up a few 45s in my time that went on to be staples but Im now happy to collect and still get to hear good records new to me that I like. I actually have a pretty wide taste [don't judge a book by it's cover] including hip-hop, funk and reggae. I've always thought that if you restrict yourself to only one form of music you tend to lose your ear.

I was actually [thru my then girlfriend] dj-ing around Manchester in early 90's playing hip-hop, Jazz,rare groove and funk. It was when I turned up with her for a spot and they thought I was her taxi driver that I knew I'd made the right choice in taking a backseat.

ROD

Wohhhhh!!! Lets not rewrite history here. Firstly I was 17 in early 77 not 15. There were also plenty of guys aged 23-25 who were Punks in London, including JOE STRUMMER and some of the prime movers in that scene so please don't imply that your reluctance to acknowledge events surrounding a cultural sub-revolution, was due to some kind of self-concieved 'maturity'. As for the swastikas, that was SID and a few deranged halfwits who missed the plot but that very quickly died out as the realisation that Punk was fundamentally anti-racist and anti-fascist (I.E 'NAZI') dawned.

The foundation of 'Rock against Racism' and the massive concerts in Victoria Park and Brockwell Park that followed owed their energy and success to the passions and philosophies held within Punk. That movement changed the lives of countless people, who have since spent decades fighting the evils of prejudice and discrimination. To describe the people on that scene as 'boozed up louts' displays a thorough ignorance of what was going on and what really happened. In reality, my experience was that most people on the Punk scene were above average intelligence and possessed a keener perception and understanding of the system which rules our lives, than many of the guys I'd grown up with previously. I can quite honestly say that Northern Soul, much as I love it, had no deterrent affect on my 70s passion for Football Hooliganism. Punk did. I was not alone in such factors.

The Punks, Gays and Rastas who came together in various alliances during that period helped forge the future cultural/musical face of Britain and the media reaction - aided and abetted by political forces - was a thousand times more hysterical than any of the previous crap thrown at the Northern scene for it's supposed aura of 'drug menace'....Your right it was, because - amongst other things - punk fostered a genuine level of political/artistic education amongst the working classes and that is always viewed as a serious threat to the establishment. Particularly when it came with massive attacks on the credibility of The Royal Family, The Queen and her rancid 'Silver Jubilee'.

The 'boozed up louts' in London were in fact the supposed 'straight' clubbing geezers (the ones drinking and dancing to Philly and chart Soul often enough!) who wanted to kill anybody in a pair of straight jeans circa late '76-early 77 and this manifested in a series of high profile attacks on people such as LYDON and SEX PISTOLS drummer PAUL COOK. Many, many people were attacked in the same manner including my brother and a group of friends who got jumped by a big gang of guys that emerged from surprise, surprise, a Funk Club in Bournemouth. My Brother also still has the scars of a stab wound obtained in Portsmouth from a similar attack by 'straight' clubbers, so lets get real about who the louts really were. I cannot speak for Punk 'clones' drunk on cider in the far provinces, but in real Punk circles, most people had a brain.

As for the bollocks about 'rock music'. History lesson NO 2. Prior to Punk, the British Rock world was represented by majestic slobs and so called 'Black Music fans' like ERIC CLAPTON. 'Rock against Racism' was founded because of CLAPTON'S racist remarks to the crowd at Knebworth in '76, when he berated immigrants publicly to thousands of music fans. THE CLASH, TOM ROBINSON and others rallied to the cause, in the direct face of that obnoxious bullshit and the conseqeunces are still apparent today. RAR celebrated its 30TH anniversary not long ago with a huge Anti Racism concert in London, supported by some of the top British Black Music names, not only Rock bands.

That achievement and the continuing fight against Racism and Fascism owes much to the spirit of Punk in 76-77 and if you cannot see all that, dont comment on things you don't understand. If you could not get past the swastika stage, your priorities were clearly not 'tuned in' - which is fair enough. To try and compare British Songwriters such as WELLER and STRUMMER/JONES as in any way being 'repackaged' along the lines of the Rock shite that was ruling the airwaves before they arrived is ludicrous and very unfair. And if you can find me any DEEP PURPLE, DAVE CLARK FIVE or CLIFF RICHARD records (I.E The entire previous library of BRITISH ROCK) which contain such ferocious social attack as 'God Save The Queen' by THE SEX PISTOLS, I'll owe you a mighty big round of drinks!

As STRUMMER said at the time 'I dont care if they can't understand the words - they either get it or they don't.'

I never meant there were hordes of Punks descending on Wigan Casino, backdropping in bondage trousers, I meant I knew quite a few guys who had some level of patronisation of the Northern Soul scene previously to their involvement in Punk. The fact that by 1979, THE CLASH were turning to GUY STEVENS, former mainman of SUE RECORDS, to produce their acclaimed 'London Calling' album shows that culturally the musical boundaries are a lot more complex than you imagine them to be. The fact that JAM gigs were regularly preceeded by DJ's playing 60s Motown and Soul also illustrated the hybrid of influences at play - and before you jump down my throat - the original JAM London gigs were populated by many Punks who saw them as part of that scene, irrespective of the Mod uniforms. And then we go from Punk to Mod to Two Tone to Dexys, to the Scooter movement and a roundabout route by which quite a few found their way on to what is now the contemporary Northern Soul scene.

In direct relation to todays Northern scene, I think that people like PS are indeed frustrated by the lack of 'cutting edge' culture now apparent on the scene and to be honest this is something I share with him. Sometimes when I am pissed and a DJ is on a roll, it still feels like the greatest scene in the world and an utter privilege to be aware of it. At other times, I feel like I am surrounded by a bunch of wallies who wish they were older or hipper in 1974 and who won't dance to anything other than a staple diet of those played out Wigan oldies championed by the likes of the permanent 'Shopping Arcade roadshow'. Bearing in mind that active participation in passionate SOUL SOURCE debates is limited to a tiny fraction of those still involved in the scene, it's hard to truly gauge what the dominant flavour really is. 'Nostalgic Revivalist Club' or 'Underground Hipsters Hangout'? But I certainly also agree that you do not have to be going to do's to be a ' true' Soul Music fan. That is a silly position for anybody to take and surely nobody really believes that?

Ultimately, the love of the music itself is what matters and there is no way known to man, of measuring what lies within a human heart.

Edited September 17, 2009 by chorleysoul

[Guest]

FFS Jocko, this isn't a reply but a dissertation. I type with one finger.

I was hopefully trying to answer Paul in the context of how I understood Barry's initial posting. Im not comfortable with the idea that somehow you need to travel to certain venues [Lifeline was mentioned]to be "truly inspired" by the music. Yes, the guys in the Legion having a drink with their mates is not how Paul sees the scene but I don't know how one can jump to the conclusion that they are somehow less committed to the music nor that they are somehow responsible for any failings in the "progressive" scene as you are now suggesting. Barry referred to an "integral" part and as such I see those people as no less entitled to call themselves "soulies" as anyone else being part of a shared experience but which can take many forms.

I will try and answer any other points but right now it's tea-time, Clare's home and it's must watch TV after that. Chorleysoul is gunning for me too so I may be under the bed.

ROD

Its only a water pistol ROD!

[Ady Croasdell]

Wohhhhh!!! Lets not rewrite history here. Firstly I was 17 in early 77 not 15. There were also plenty of guys aged 23-25 who were Punks in London, including JOE STRUMMER and some of the prime movers in that scene so please don't imply that your reluctance to acknowledge events surrounding a cultural sub-revolution, was due to some kind of self-concieved 'maturity'. As for the swastikas, that was SID and a few deranged halfwits who missed the plot but that very quickly died out as the realisation that Punk was fundamentally anti-racist and anti-fascist (I.E 'NAZI') dawned.

The foundation of 'Rock against Racism' and the massive concerts in Victoria Park and Brockwell Park that followed owed their energy and success to the passions and philosophies held within Punk. That movement changed the lives of countless people, who have since spent decades fighting the evils of prejudice and discrimination. To describe the people on that scene as 'boozed up louts' displays a thorough ignorance of what was going on and what really happened. In reality, my experience was that most people on the Punk scene were above average intelligence and possessed a keener perception and understanding of the system which rules our lives, than many of the guys I'd grown up with previously. I can quite honestly say that Northern Soul, much as I love it, had no deterrent affect on my 70s passion for Football Hooliganism. Punk did. I was not alone in such factors.

The Punks, Gays and Rastas who came together in various alliances during that period helped forge the future cultural/musical face of Britain and the media reaction - aided and abetted by political forces - was a thousand times more hysterical than any of the previous crap thrown at the Northern scene for it's supposed aura of 'drug menace'....Your right it was, because - amongst other things - punk fostered a genuine level of political/artistic education amongst the working classes and that is always viewed as a serious threat to the establishment. Particularly when it came with massive attacks on the credibility of The Royal Family, The Queen and her rancid 'Silver Jubilee'.

The 'boozed up louts' in London were in fact the supposed 'straight' clubbing geezers (the ones drinking and dancing to Philly and chart Soul often enough!) who wanted to kill anybody in a pair of straight jeans circa late '76-early 77 and this manifested in a series of high profile attacks on people such as LYDON and SEX PISTOLS drummer PAUL COOK. Many, many people were attacked in the same manner including my brother and a group of friends who got jumped by a big gang of guys that emerged from surprise, surprise, a Funk Club in Bournemouth. My Brother also still has the scars of a stab wound obtained in Portsmouth from a similar attack by 'straight' clubbers, so lets get real about who the louts really were. I cannot speak for Punk 'clones' drunk on cider in the far provinces, but in real Punk circles, most people had a brain.

As for the bollocks about 'rock music'. History lesson NO 2. Prior to Punk, the British Rock world was represented by majestic slobs and so called 'Black Music fans' like ERIC CLAPTON. 'Rock against Racism' was founded because of CLAPTON'S racist remarks to the crowd at Knebworth in '76, when he berated immigrants publicly to thousands of music fans. THE CLASH, TOM ROBINSON and others rallied to the cause, in the direct face of that obnoxious bullshit and the conseqeunces are still apparent today. RAR celebrated its 30TH anniversary not long ago with a huge Anti Racism concert in London, supported by some of the top British Black Music names, not only Rock bands.

That achievement and the continuing fight against Racism and Fascism owes much to the spirit of Punk in 76-77 and if you cannot see all that, dont comment on things you don't understand. If you could not get past the swastika stage, your priorities were clearly not 'tuned in' - which is fair enough. To try and compare British Songwriters such as WELLER and STRUMMER/JONES as in any way being 'repackaged' along the lines of the Rock shite that was ruling the airwaves before they arrived is ludicrous and very unfair. And if you can find me any DEEP PURPLE, DAVE CLARK FIVE or CLIFF RICHARD records (I.E The entire previous library of BRITISH ROCK) which contain such ferocious social attack as 'God Save The Queen' by THE SEX PISTOLS, I'll owe you a mighty big round of drinks!

As STRUMMER said at the time 'I dont care if they can't understand the words - they either get it or they don't.'

I never meant there were hordes of Punks descending on Wigan Casino, backdropping in bondage trousers, I meant I knew quite a few guys who had some level of patronisation of the Northern Soul scene previously to their involvement in Punk. The fact that by 1979, THE CLASH were turning to GUY STEVENS, former mainman of SUE RECORDS, to produce their acclaimed 'London Calling' album shows that culturally the musical boundaries are a lot more complex than you imagine them to be. The fact that JAM gigs were regularly preceeded by DJ's playing 60s Motown and Soul also illustrated the hybrid of influences at play - and before you jump down my throat - the original JAM London gigs were populated by many Punks who saw them as part of that scene, irrespective of the Mod uniforms. And then we go from Punk to Mod to Two Tone to Dexys, to the Scooter movement and a roundabout route by which quite a few found their way on to what is now the contemporary Northern Soul scene.

In direct relation to todays Northern scene, I think that people like PS are indeed frustrated by the lack of 'cutting edge' culture now apparent on the scene and to be honest this is something I share with him. Sometimes when I am pissed and a DJ is on a roll, it still feels like the greatest scene in the world and an utter privilege to be aware of it. At other times, I feel like I am surrounded by a bunch of wallies who wish they were older or hipper in 1974 and who won't dance to anything other than a staple diet of those played out Wigan oldies championed by the likes of the permanent 'Shopping Arcade roadshow'. Bearing in mind that active participation in passionate SOUL SOURCE debates is limited to a tiny fraction of those still involved in the scene, it's hard to truly gauge what the dominant flavour really is. 'Nostalgic Revivalist Club' or 'Underground Hipsters Hangout'? But I certainly also agree that you do not have to be going to do's to be a ' true' Soul Music fan. That is a silly position for anybody to take and surely nobody really believes that?

Ultimately, the love of the music itself is what matters and there is no way known to man, of measuring what lies within a human heart.

He's got it, by George he's got it!

[Pauldonnelly]

seems to me that the current northern 'rare' 'underplayed' 'new stuff'

'dube scene' has gone full circle.

40 years ago 1969 most teens got there fix of soul at their local

FRIDAY/SAT Soul night while those that wanted that extra 'buzz'

travelled to be part of 'that' scene.

Same as, same as

[Dylan]

It's a side issue but as a London punk, the big gigs meant nothing, they were for tourists and posers; it was all about small clubs. i don't know about the Manc scene.

can the same be said for the soul scene ?

or is it the one big club as a focal point that would be a good thing for the soul scene.

Was there ever a backlash against wigan as it became popular due to media exposure. Did the core of the scene stay away or keep going ?

[Guest proudlove]

seems to me that the current northern 'rare' 'underplayed' 'new stuff'

'dube scene' has gone full circle.

40 years ago 1969 most teens got there fix of soul at their local

FRIDAY/SAT Soul night while those that wanted that extra 'buzz'

travelled to be part of 'that' scene.

Same as, same as

Plus ca change...........................................................

[Ady Croasdell]

can the same be said for the soul scene ?

or is it the one big club as a focal point that would be a good thing for the soul scene.

Was there ever a backlash against wigan as it became popular due to media exposure. Did the core of the scene stay away or keep going ?

I've revived my view on the big gigs since Chorleysoul's post, it was just that I'd cut down on the punk side by the time they were happening. One big joyous all nighter would be a hoot but I think with 40 years of listening everyone's musical tastes are too diverse. There was a backlash against Wigan's blatant commerciality; was it a solid year of "last ever" nighters? it felt like it. And the music didn't grab a lot of people by the end, it was all about the beat and less about the soul.

[Alison H]

Hi Barry I guess you didn't want your face plastered all over a milk carton !! (i.e your birthday thread)

Sorry guys I've nothing to add to this thread, just wanted to be cheeky & sneak in on interesting thread then at least somewhere down the line I can say I've posted on an interesting & thought provoking thread.

Right I'll leave you to get on with your master debate.

Peace & love & seriously no offence to anyone. Mwah!!

Cheerio

Ali x

[Quinvy]

Wow! you guys are amazing, and I feel unworthy to be on the same forum.......I just heard "northern soul" and thought wow! that's fantastic, I wanna dance to this. ........and when I heard punk music, I thought, God thats awful I don't want anything to do with that.

I never knew about all that other stuff, I feel a complete plonker now......

[Ady Croasdell]

Wow! you guys are amazing, and I feel unworthy to be on the same forum.......I just heard "northern soul" and thought wow! that's fantastic, I wanna dance to this. ........and when I heard punk music, I thought, God thats awful I don't want anything to do with that.

I never knew about all that other stuff, I feel a complete plonker now......

Yes. Yes. Yes. No. Yes.

[Quinvy]

Yes. Yes. Yes. No. Yes.

Yes!

[Guest]

Hi Barry I guess you didn't want your face plastered all over a milk carton !! (i.e your birthday thread)

Sorry guys I've nothing to add to this thread, just wanted to be cheeky & sneak in on interesting thread then at least somewhere down the line I can say I've posted on an interesting & thought provoking thread.

Right I'll leave you to get on with your master debate.

Peace & love & seriously no offence to anyone. Mwah!!

Cheerio

Ali x

I just want to say I think you have by far and a million miles away........................The best goddamned avatar on this whole site! 'LITTLE MISS DETROIT', superb!!

[Modernsoulsucks]

Wohhhhh!!! Lets not rewrite history here. Firstly I was 17 in early 77 not 15. There were also plenty of guys aged 23-25 who were Punks in London, including JOE STRUMMER and some of the prime movers in that scene so please don't imply that your reluctance to acknowledge events surrounding a cultural sub-revolution, was due to some kind of self-concieved 'maturity'. As for the swastikas, that was SID and a few deranged halfwits who missed the plot but that very quickly died out as the realisation that Punk was fundamentally anti-racist and anti-fascist (I.E 'NAZI') dawned.

The foundation of 'Rock against Racism' and the massive concerts in Victoria Park and Brockwell Park that followed owed their energy and success to the passions and philosophies held within Punk. That movement changed the lives of countless people, who have since spent decades fighting the evils of prejudice and discrimination. To describe the people on that scene as 'boozed up louts' displays a thorough ignorance of what was going on and what really happened. In reality, my experience was that most people on the Punk scene were above average intelligence and possessed a keener perception and understanding of the system which rules our lives, than many of the guys I'd grown up with previously. I can quite honestly say that Northern Soul, much as I love it, had no deterrent affect on my 70s passion for Football Hooliganism. Punk did. I was not alone in such factors.

The Punks, Gays and Rastas who came together in various alliances during that period helped forge the future cultural/musical face of Britain and the media reaction - aided and abetted by political forces - was a thousand times more hysterical than any of the previous crap thrown at the Northern scene for it's supposed aura of 'drug menace'....Your right it was, because - amongst other things - punk fostered a genuine level of political/artistic education amongst the working classes and that is always viewed as a serious threat to the establishment. Particularly when it came with massive attacks on the credibility of The Royal Family, The Queen and her rancid 'Silver Jubilee'.

The 'boozed up louts' in London were in fact the supposed 'straight' clubbing geezers (the ones drinking and dancing to Philly and chart Soul often enough!) who wanted to kill anybody in a pair of straight jeans circa late '76-early 77 and this manifested in a series of high profile attacks on people such as LYDON and SEX PISTOLS drummer PAUL COOK. Many, many people were attacked in the same manner including my brother and a group of friends who got jumped by a big gang of guys that emerged from surprise, surprise, a Funk Club in Bournemouth. My Brother also still has the scars of a stab wound obtained in Portsmouth from a similar attack by 'straight' clubbers, so lets get real about who the louts really were. I cannot speak for Punk 'clones' drunk on cider in the far provinces, but in real Punk circles, most people had a brain.

As for the bollocks about 'rock music'. History lesson NO 2. Prior to Punk, the British Rock world was represented by majestic slobs and so called 'Black Music fans' like ERIC CLAPTON. 'Rock against Racism' was founded because of CLAPTON'S racist remarks to the crowd at Knebworth in '76, when he berated immigrants publicly to thousands of music fans. THE CLASH, TOM ROBINSON and others rallied to the cause, in the direct face of that obnoxious bullshit and the conseqeunces are still apparent today. RAR celebrated its 30TH anniversary not long ago with a huge Anti Racism concert in London, supported by some of the top British Black Music names, not only Rock bands.

That achievement and the continuing fight against Racism and Fascism owes much to the spirit of Punk in 76-77 and if you cannot see all that, dont comment on things you don't understand. If you could not get past the swastika stage, your priorities were clearly not 'tuned in' - which is fair enough. To try and compare British Songwriters such as WELLER and STRUMMER/JONES as in any way being 'repackaged' along the lines of the Rock shite that was ruling the airwaves before they arrived is ludicrous and very unfair. And if you can find me any DEEP PURPLE, DAVE CLARK FIVE or CLIFF RICHARD records (I.E The entire previous library of BRITISH ROCK) which contain such ferocious social attack as 'God Save The Queen' by THE SEX PISTOLS, I'll owe you a mighty big round of drinks!

As STRUMMER said at the time 'I dont care if they can't understand the words - they either get it or they don't.'

I never meant there were hordes of Punks descending on Wigan Casino, backdropping in bondage trousers, I meant I knew quite a few guys who had some level of patronisation of the Northern Soul scene previously to their involvement in Punk. The fact that by 1979, THE CLASH were turning to GUY STEVENS, former mainman of SUE RECORDS, to produce their acclaimed 'London Calling' album shows that culturally the musical boundaries are a lot more complex than you imagine them to be. The fact that JAM gigs were regularly preceeded by DJ's playing 60s Motown and Soul also illustrated the hybrid of influences at play - and before you jump down my throat - the original JAM London gigs were populated by many Punks who saw them as part of that scene, irrespective of the Mod uniforms. And then we go from Punk to Mod to Two Tone to Dexys, to the Scooter movement and a roundabout route by which quite a few found their way on to what is now the contemporary Northern Soul scene.

In direct relation to todays Northern scene, I think that people like PS are indeed frustrated by the lack of 'cutting edge' culture now apparent on the scene and to be honest this is something I share with him. Sometimes when I am pissed and a DJ is on a roll, it still feels like the greatest scene in the world and an utter privilege to be aware of it. At other times, I feel like I am surrounded by a bunch of wallies who wish they were older or hipper in 1974 and who won't dance to anything other than a staple diet of those played out Wigan oldies championed by the likes of the permanent 'Shopping Arcade roadshow'. Bearing in mind that active participation in passionate SOUL SOURCE debates is limited to a tiny fraction of those still involved in the scene, it's hard to truly gauge what the dominant flavour really is. 'Nostalgic Revivalist Club' or 'Underground Hipsters Hangout'? But I certainly also agree that you do not have to be going to do's to be a ' true' Soul Music fan. That is a silly position for anybody to take and surely nobody really believes that?

Ultimately, the love of the music itself is what matters and there is no way known to man, of measuring what lies within a human heart.

OK TV over.

I see we kinda agree on the soul thing so that leaves your perception of punk as a participant and mine as an outsider so of course Im on a hiding to nothing here.

In early '77 I was 24 and an Executive Oficer in the MOD. No doubt part of the fascist regime, as the Sex Pisrtols would have it, of the Labour Party under Callaghan. With a support team of four and responsible for the pay and conditions of around 100 Quality Assurance staff scattered around the country engaged in defence procurement. Pretty responsible job and lots of pressure. I believe I was mature enough to carry out those duties and certainly capable of assessing the punk scene and it's relevance to me at the time. I was interested in what was going on around me in society and politics and no doubt had a different understanding to that of a 17 year old.

Used to read NME and saw it coming up. The pictures taken on the King's Road where the fashion shops sold the tartan bondage trousers and all the other bits of the uniform that made the punks so very individual from the off. I even got to hear a lot of the music because I was buying it in quantity to send over to a guy in St. Louis in exchange for Northern. Im sorry but to my ears it was more of the same white guitar pop music. No it didn't sound like Blodwyn Pig or the Bay City Rollers but compared to 60's soul it was absolutely bobbins. As for the radical lyric content no I can't come up with a specific "rock" track but I'd guess there are plenty of UK folk songs that deal with the plight of the common man under a harsh system. A lot harsher than that of 1977 I'd think.

And yes I read the articles in NME espousing their views. Can't remember any of it really as it wasn't exactly a new way of looking at things as far as I was concerned. Thumbing one's nose at the Queen and authority in general didn't strike me as particularly radical. We'd been leaving the cinema before the National Anthem for quite some time before that. Getting people together to combat racism was a positive achievment I admit but a certain irony in that music papers like the NME could champion that and yet you'd be hard pressed to find any coverage of Black Music in them, which was of course why B&S, Echoes [was it? - the other glossy] and fanzines were doing so well. I didn't go to any of those concerts but then the music was not my thing. And hopefully I lived my life in accordance with those principles anyway. And BTW I didn't need anybody to tell me that racism and fascism were wrong so I think I can comment on it even though you think I don't understand. I'd say maybe you as a self-confessed football hooligan in the 70's at a time when the NF were extremely active on the terraces didn't understand at the time.

It now turns out that there were the right kinds of punks who were socially aware and the punk clones which was not perhaps immediately apparent to the outsider. I musta been unlucky and kept bumping into the clones on the streets of Manchester sat in groups drinking and foul-mouthed or running the occasional guantlet on the way to Wigan ot the incident at Northwich allnighter when they smashed the doors and a pitched battle took place. I don't disbelieve you because my sister-in-law is an ex-punk. She was married to some guy in the Notsensibles [from Burnley or Blackburn] and performed poetry on stage with them and is now gay and working in women's rights in London and is a published poet. I guess a positive life-enhancing experience for her. Musically clueless. Last known gig. Take That at Stretford.

So Im sorry but I don't buy your above average intelligence punks or the threat it posed to the system by somehow empowering the working class. It was just pop music packaged for maximum financial gain that perhaps had the rather clever idea of wrapping it in a social/political message to gain credibility and appeal. A ploy we've seen used since from Red Wedge to Bono to Free Nelson Mandela. It was never a threat because it was a minority interest confined to the young who were politically powerless anyway and so the State never had to come down hard on it unless you think banning records from Radio 1 is oppression. I may concede that it did have an effect on some people like my sister-in-law but to say it changed the cultural/musical face of the UK doesn't ring true to me either. It was a short-lived musical fad alongside as you say Two-Tone and the Mod groups and you have to look to the other side of the Pond to see where the dominant fashion and music comes from today which is of course Hip-Hop/R&B.

ROD

Edited September 18, 2009 by modernsoulsucks

[Ady Croasdell]

British pop/rock was shit prior to punk; after it it was brilliant again.

[ImberBoy]

Ady do you like any of the new stuff like the Kaiser Monkees?

[Ady Croasdell]

Ady do you like any of the new stuff like the Kaiser Monkees?

Just you you cheeky monkey!

[Modernsoulsucks]

Just wanted to add to my observation on loutish behaviour with the following quote.

"One of the worst things about punk was the gobbing (spitting) at bands. I remember seeing The Clash take to the stage in a hail of spit that looked like a snowstorm!

Who started these shenanigans then ? "Apparently the origin of spitting at gigs came from an early Damned gig at which somebody threw a can of beer at Rat Scabies and he just went up to the bloke, pulled him up by the scruff of the neck and spat in his face. From then on everyone decided spitting was a good idea"

Severin of the Banshees (The Damned's nemesis) seems to concur " I don't know who started it , but it was probably that arsehole Rat Scabies from the Damned." Ooh you bitch Severin !!!

Ramones on stage Rainbow London December 1978

A shower of beer and gob illuminated by the stage lights.

Johnny Rotten disagrees though " I think the audiences gobbing on stage came from me. Because of my sinuses, I do gob a lot on stage, but never out toward the crowd...But the press will jump on that, and the next week you get an audience thinking that's its part of the fashion and everybody has to be in on it. There's not much you can do to stop it after that."

Very phlegmatic if you'll excuse the pun John.

Says Julien Temple (Rock'N' Roll Swindle director) " When Rotten finally came out on stage, it was like Agincourt. There were these massed volleys of gob flying through the air that just hung John like a Medusa."

Siouxsie caught conjunctivitis after gob landed in her eye. Strummer got glandular fever after he swallowed it. Bands like The Clash, Pistols etc would be playing with huge big gobs landing on their strings. No wonder punk bands played fast and wanted to fight their audiences !"

Youthful exuberance? Drunken, boorish and loutish IMO. No doubt again I don't get it. Think I was taught not to spit in public at a very early age by my parents.

ROD

[ImberBoy]

I saw killing Joke at the Hull Truck back in the early eighties; Jaz Coleman received a gob right in his eye. He stopped singing and said that the next fu**** who spat would be responsible for ending the concert. No one spat and they continued.

[Guest]

OK TV over.

I see we kinda agree on the soul thing so that leaves your perception of punk as a participant and mine as an outsider so of course Im on a hiding to nothing here.

In early '77 I was 24 and an Executive Oficer in the MOD. No doubt part of the fascist regime, as the Sex Pisrtols would have it, of the Labour Party under Callaghan. With a support team of four and responsible for the pay and conditions of around 100 Quality Assurance staff scattered around the country engaged in defence procurement. Pretty responsible job and lots of pressure. I believe I was mature enough to carry out those duties and certainly capable of assessing the punk scene and it's relevance to me at the time. I was interested in what was going on around me in society and politics and no doubt had a different understanding to that of a 17 year old.

Used to read NME and saw it coming up. The pictures taken on the King's Road where the fashion shops sold the tartan bondage trousers and all the other bits of the uniform that made the punks so very individual from the off. I even got to hear a lot of the music because I was buying it in quantity to send over to a guy in St. Louis in exchange for Northern. Im sorry but to my ears it was more of the same white guitar pop music. No it didn't sound like Blodwyn Pig or the Bay City Rollers but compared to 60's soul it was absolutely bobbins. As for the radical lyric content no I can't come up with a specific "rock" track but I'd guess there are plenty of UK folk songs that deal with the plight of the common man under a harsh system. A lot harsher than that of 1977 I'd think.

And yes I read the articles in NME espousing their views. Can't remember any of it really as it wasn't exactly a new way of looking at things as far as I was concerned. Thumbing one's nose at the Queen and authority in general didn't strike me as particularly radical. We'd been leaving the cinema before the National Anthem for quite some time before that. Getting people together to combat racism was a positive achievment I admit but a certain irony in that music papers like the NME could champion that and yet you'd be hard pressed to find any coverage of Black Music in them, which was of course why B&S, Echoes [was it? - the other glossy] and fanzines were doing so well. I didn't go to any of those concerts but then the music was not my thing. And hopefully I lived my life in accordance with those principles anyway. And BTW I didn't need anybody to tell me that racism and fascism were wrong so I think I can comment on it even though you think I don't understand. I'd say maybe you as a self-confessed football hooligan in the 70's at a time when the NF were extremely active on the terraces didn't understand at the time.

It now turns out that there were the right kinds of punks who were socially aware and the punk clones which was not perhaps immediately apparent to the outsider. I musta been unlucky and kept bumping into the clones on the streets of Manchester sat in groups drinking and foul-mouthed or running the occasional guantlet on the way to Wigan ot the incident at Northwich allnighter when they smashed the doors and a pitched battle took place. I don't disbelieve you because my sister-in-law is an ex-punk. She was married to some guy in the Notsensibles [from Burnley or Blackburn] and performed poetry on stage with them and is now gay and working in women's rights in London and is a published poet. I guess a positive life-enhancing experience for her. Musically clueless. Last known gig. Take That at Stretford.

So Im sorry but I don't buy your above average intelligence punks or the threat it posed to the system by somehow empowering the working class. It was just pop music packaged for maximum financial gain that perhaps had the rather clever idea of wrapping it in a social/political message to gain credibility and appeal. A ploy we've seen used since from Red Wedge to Bono to Free Nelson Mandela. It was never a threat because it was a minority interest confined to the young who were politically powerless anyway and so the State never had to come down hard on it unless you think banning records from Radio 1 is oppression. I may concede that it did have an effect on some people like my sister-in-law but to say it changed the cultural/musical face of the UK doesn't ring true to me either. It was a short-lived musical fad alongside as you say Two-Tone and the Mod groups and you have to look to the other side of the Pond to see where the dominant fashion and music comes from today which is of course Hip-Hop/R&B.

ROD

As with the earlier contribution, parochial, cliched and way off beam. I will respond again later tonight and challenge/clarify a lot of those points, when I have the time. But in tandem with ADY'S one liner - If you think you would have got THE SMITHS, HAPPY MONDAYS, STONE ROSES, OASIS etc without THE CLASH and THE PISTOLS you are deluding yourself and that is just the start. Whether you like that music is irrelevant.

[Barry]

I saw killing Joke at the Hull Truck back in the early eighties; Jaz Coleman received a gob right in his eye. He stopped singing and said that the next fu**** who spat would be responsible for ending the concert. No one spat and they continued.

I went to a Stranglers 'MIB' tour concert in '81 and Hugh Cornwell stopped mid set and swore if there were one more gob directed there way, that was them off.

They were covered in it.

John Jacque Brunel had a particularly heavy green one flobbing about in his hair the whole concert.

[Modernsoulsucks]

As with the earlier contribution, parochial, cliched and way off beam. I will respond again later tonight and challenge/clarify a lot of those points, when I have the time. But in tandem with ADY'S one liner - If you think you would have got THE SMITHS, HAPPY MONDAYS, STONE ROSES, OASIS etc without THE CLASH and THE PISTOLS you are deluding yourself and that is just the start. Whether you like that music is irrelevant.

Please don't bother as we're not going to agree. Although if you wish to explain and justify punk again that's up to you but maybe start a new thread in Freebasing so we don't continue to hijack Barry's. I have no interest in the music at all. Nor astoundingly do I have any interest in any of the other groups you mention. You obviously don't understand although you keep saying I don't. Im not into pop music. Haven't been since early 1968.

The fact that I don't like punk or what came after is extremely relevant in that I have no wish to hear your interpretation of it's "place" then or now. That music has had no effect on me at all or on most people I know of varying ages,interests and backgrounds. It was just something I heard now and again but not by choice.

ROD

Edited September 18, 2009 by modernsoulsucks

[Quinvy]

Mike, I really need an "over my head" smiley.......... A confused expression, with a load of bollocks going over it's head......p-l-e-a-s-e-!

[Paul Shirley]

What scene? There is no scene, just a lot of people who can no longer be bothered travelling and so have started their own local nights where they can have a drink and play a few tunes with their mates!

The will and energy no longer exists for a scene. I actually know from travelling and going out that there is only a very small group of people who travel regularly and are truly inspired by music...FACT!

A scene requires unity and a few central venues with inspiring djs and inspired punters and eclectic and holistic promoters. BUT such is the battle for supremecy with the larger venues (lifeline not included) and such is the promoters egocentric approach to promoting, that the scene is fractured and there is absolutely no desire amongst these large promoters to integrate! I never see them out and about at venues...integrating. Encouraging or inspiring. Just look at how many venue date clashes we have going on....their is no scene.

Im a 'soul' , honest and true and proud to be just that...i was a part of a scene in the 70s and 80s, but those times are long gone and will never return.....so, its time to enjoy whats out there and keep it in context not compare it to something it can never be....move on and enjoy the small, honest nights that are run by people with heart and soul and no financial or manipulative agenda....keep your own faith!

i couldent agree more

[Guest proudlove]

As with the earlier contribution, parochial, cliched and way off beam. I will respond again later tonight and challenge/clarify a lot of those points, when I have the time. But in tandem with ADY'S one liner - If you think you would have got THE SMITHS, HAPPY MONDAYS, STONE ROSES, OASIS etc without THE CLASH and THE PISTOLS you are deluding yourself and that is just the start. Whether you like that music is irrelevant.

Parochial,Irellevant,way off beam,----hmmm,different views,different ages,different parts of the country----hmmmm?

[Pete Eccles]

Parochial,Irellevant,way off beam,----hmmm,different views,different ages,different parts of the country----hmmmm?

Steve Im the same age as Chorleysoul, so younger than Rod, and I agree that as I remember it punk was a minority interest, a brief fad, and pop music that was of no interest to me, it may have had a small effect on how pop music evolved thereafter but like I said unless you were actively participating it meant very little, to me anyway,

[Guest]

Please don't bother as we're not going to agree. Although if you wish to explain and justify punk again that's up to you but maybe start a new thread in Freebasing so we don't continue to hijack Barry's. I have no interest in the music at all. Nor astoundingly do I have any interest in any of the other groups you mention. You obviously don't understand although you keep saying I don't. Im not into pop music. Haven't been since early 1968.

ROD

This is what happens when people start losing debates. This thread has not been 'hijacked' at all. Conceptually the thread revolves around the question of whether people are fans of a particular 'music' or alternatively, are they really fans of a 'scene'....I am bringing all my observations back to that question and ultimately concluding with direct relevance to the Northern Soul scene. The example of Punk, is a good one because it is a scene that brought many people together who were perhaps not that directly enamoured with the musical sound - but enjoyed and gained from the experiences encapsulated in the 'scene'. Let me make it crystal clear, I got into Northern Soul in 1974. I'd already been to Wigan and other venues long before Punk arrived and 60s and 70s Soul has always - and will always - be my own personal musical love. I personally class myself as a fan of Soul Music before the scene, but I do believe and agree there are plenty of people who would soon lose interest in Soul Music if the scene which 'houses' it vanished. As such I am not talking specifically about a particlular affection for the sound of 'Punk Rock' but for the cameraderie and sense of 'journey', wrought by my association with that scene. There are many points which you have addressed which I still wish to pursue so I will do it here, inside the framework of the original question as I have just defined - if that is okay with you.

As for the comments regarding 'pop' music and 1968. Whether you, me or anybody else likes it or not, the records we love, in the truest sense of the word - are 'pop' records. Soul, like Reggae, Punk, Rock, Ska etc is merely another 'genre' of 'popular music', which is where the phrase originates as I am sure you know. It is interesting that in the states, quite a few older Black guys refer to our music as 'pop soul' when they realise what style it is we are describing. We may not like that but ultimately it is their music and their definitions are beyond our territory.

Edited September 18, 2009 by chorleysoul

[Guest]

Steve Im the same age as Chorleysoul, so younger than Rod, and I agree that as I remember it punk was a minority interest, a brief fad, and pop music that was of no interest to me, it may have had a small effect on how pop music evolved thereafter but like I said unless you were actively participating it meant very little, to me anyway,

The last 3 words of that post are the most relevant. Perhaps you don't realise how many prime figures in contemporary Western Culture were massively influenced by Punk Rock. Film Stars, Directors, Fashion Designers, Producers, Programme Makers, Writers, Publicists, Poets, Playwriters, authors, musicians, promoters, the list is endless and perhaps this post sums up the insularity of a certain perspective.

A lot of people do not understand the mechanics of a 'cultural' revolution rather than a 'political' one. The shape of our culture in Britain today was enormously influenced by Punk.

But you are missing the point completely. Hopefully my previous post about 'scenes' will clarify things.

Edited September 18, 2009 by chorleysoul

[KevH]

This has really gone off at a tangent!!!.Got a question,,but first,,,,,

Punk scene - full of chancers who'd rip you and anyone else off sooner than look at you.A right mix of the malcontent,ex-offenders,school outcasts.People who'd protest about anything at the drop of a hat.

How do i know?....spent time in squats in Islington,saw lots of bands,went round the country.Lived in a Biker's club house..etc....

Not all were intellectuals by any means. .

So,we've all got a story.But back to my question.What the f*ck has all this got to do with "The Scene"? .

One more thing.Paul S and Chorleysoul - did you do the festival stuff as well,? ie: Stonehenge?

[Pete Eccles]

The last 3 words of that post are the most relevant. Perhaps you don't realise how many prime figures in contemporary Western Culture were massively influenced by Punk Rock. Film Stars, Directors, Fashion Designers, Producers, Programme Makers, Writers, Publicists, Poets, Playwriters, authors, musicians, promoters, the list is endless and perhaps this post sums up the insularity of a certain perspective.

A lot of people do not understand the mechanics of a 'cultural' revolution rather than a 'political' one. The shape of our culture in Britain today was enormously influenced by Punk.

But you are missing the point completely. Hopefully my previous post about 'scenes' will clarify things.

Correct the last 3 words of my post are the most relevant,

'You are missing the point the point completely' 'A lot of people do not understand' 'hopefully my previouis post will clarify things'

Are you as pompous in real life as you are on here? I will give you one thing you are relentless/consistent,

Best not trying to educate me, it's a tad too late for that, perhaps it's best you do your thing and I'll do mine

Have fun