Guest REVILOT Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 After wading through this discussion, I think this is the best post on the thread. Black Americans and Jamaicans do indeed move swiftly through musical trends, fashions and styles and the 'next big thing' is eagerly greeted and adopted in these communites. There do seem to be some fundamental misunderstandings abounding though and they actually then ensure more confusion. Firstly, the idea that Americans turned their back on this music and Britain somehow 'rescued' it is seriously flawed. In addition to the huge sales warranted by Motown, Stax and Atlantic, many, many of the records we know as 'Northern Soul' classics were in fact, 'hits' on the US R'N'B charts first time out. That is the reason that masterpieces such as JACKIE WILSON 'Whispers getting louder' and so many others of that ilk can still be picked up so cheaply - because there was bucketloads of them sold! Across the states, in all the major cities and even in smaller towns, there was a large network of clubs and dancehalls in the 60s in which the 'Uptown Soul' sound was the principal musical engine. As JORDI has identified, these aspects only faded out when trends changed (primarily this means the birth of Funk) and Black American consumers, along with a considerable amount of whites quickly followed the tastes and adjustments of the musicians. But 'Uptown Soul' or whatever you want to call it, certainly had a good run in the 60s and millions of Soul records were indeed sold in the USA, so lets not imagine we somehow had 'ears' that nobody else possessed! The determination to cherish and maintain that 'Uptown' sound was what made the original UK Northern scene unique, as opposed to the land of it's origin, whereby Soul fans simply moved on and embraced new sounds, styles and rythyms. The moniker 'The land that time forgot' was/is indeed apt for the UK scene but I don't think anybody thought the scene would last this long back in 1970! It is that time factor and the sheer volume/turnover of records featured that ensured that the US was plundered for ever rarer and subsequently high priced 'gems'. The fact that the UK Northern scene has developed a now worldwide market and a hunger for ultra-scarce items, does not mean Americans did not appreciate Soul. In fact the determination of so many miniscule labels to try and get records out, with no promotion budgets and little hope therefore of noticeable sales - is a reflection of the power of the 'Soul boom' in the 60s. For a few years, everybody and his nephew wanted to get in on the act! When the 'boom' passed and these type of records were left in its slipstream, that is when the particularly British 'habits' emerged! As a nation we have long rejoiced in peering back inside the cultures of other races and peoples, long after indigenous interest has faded in artefacts, art forms and other symbolic cultural components. The All-Nighter scene and all its subsequent offshoots and evolutions over the last 40 years, has been constructed as a type of holy temple to house all these dusty 'trophies' ever since and the semi-jingoistic nature of the original postings comes I believe, as an indirect result of all this. The truth is very simple. For some reason, there was an element of the original 60s 'Uptown' Soul sound that struck an instinctive musical and emotional chord inside the hearts of thousands of British teenagers. After constructing an essentially 'retro' scene (leaving the 'Modern' aspects and debates aside) to celebrate it, this generation then, in a quintessentially British manner, proceeded to wholeheartedly follow and research this music into middle age. As a result, some people, albeit through passion and affection, have mistakenly concluded that 60s American 'Uptown Soul' is somehow the emotional and - now physical property - of the British! It is not. Black American gave this music to the world and if there really are young people hungering to own these records in countries across the globe, then it is an amazing development. Besides, there are still plenty of people in this country who will go to their graves with very impressive collections intact! As SEAN pointed out, it will be a long time before the British Black Vinyl Mountain evaporates. Tempted to say that was a fantastic golf shot but instead I will say superbly put. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest WPaulVanDyk Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 this is the funniest topic i seen on soul source in a long time. we can appriciate the music is mostly from America. The scene started in England but for owners of such music it dosen't matter weather it's English, German, American, Japanese, Aussie or wherever if they want the music and will pay for it let them. you can't go spouting off that we should own it all or else it be like German's saying don't let anyone but us have the music of Rammstein or so on cause it's there music Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Modernsoulsucks Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I get the point you're making Chorleysoul but I think you're over-emphasising the impact of the 45s that later got played here at their time of release in USA. Here is a list of R&B #1's in 1966 1966 in music, List of number-one R&B hits (United States) Issue Date Song Artist January 1 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown January 8 A Sweet Woman Like You Joe Tex January 15 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown January 22 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder January 29 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder February 5 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder February 12 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder February 19 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder February 26 Baby Scratch My Back Slim Harpo March 5 Baby Scratch My Back Slim Harpo March 12 634-5789 (Soulsville, U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett March 19 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett March 26 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 2 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 9 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 16 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 23 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 30 Get Ready The Temptations May 7 When a Man Loves a Woman Percy Sledge May 14 When a Man Loves a Woman Percy Sledge May 21 When a Man Loves a Woman Percy Sledge May 28 When a Man Loves a Woman Percy Sledge June 4 It's a Man's Man's Man's World James Brown June 11 It's a Man's Man's Man's World James Brown June 18 Hold On! I'm a Comin' Sam & Dave June 25 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations July 2 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations July 9 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations July 16 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations July 23 Let's Go Get Stoned Ray Charles July 30 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations August 6 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations August 13 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations August 20 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations August 27 Blowin' in the Wind Stevie Wonder September 3 You Can't Hurry Love The Supremes September 10 You Can't Hurry Love The Supremes September 17 Land of a Thousand Dances Wilson Pickett September 24 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 1 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 8 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 15 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 22 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 29 Reach Out I'll Be There The Four Tops November 5 Reach Out I'll Be There The Four Tops November 12 Love Is a Hurtin' Thing Lou Rawls November 19 Knock On Wood Eddie Floyd November 26 You Keep Me Hangin' On The Supremes December 3 You Keep Me Hangin' On The Supremes December 10 You Keep Me Hangin' On The Supremes December 17 You Keep Me Hangin' On The Supremes December 24 (I Know) I'm Losing You The Temptations December 31 (I Know) I'm Losing You The Temptations And 1965 Issue Date Song Artist 2 January NO CHART 9 January NO CHART 16 January NO CHART 23 January NO CHART January 30 My Girl The Temptations February 6 My Girl The Temptations February 13 My Girl The Temptations February 20 My Girl The Temptations February 27 My Girl The Temptations March 6 My Girl The Temptations March 13 Shotgun Jr. Walker & the All-Stars March 20 Shotgun Jr. Walker & the All-Stars March 27 Shotgun Jr. Walker & the All-Stars April 3 Got To Get You Off My Mind Solomon Burke April 10 Shotgun Jr. Walker & the All-Stars April 17 Got To Get You Off My Mind Solomon Burke April 24 Got To Get You Off My Mind Solomon Burke May 1 We're Gonna Make It Little Milton May 8 We're Gonna Make It Little Milton May 15 We're Gonna Make It Little Milton May 22 I'll Be Doggone Marvin Gaye May 29 Back in My Arms Again The Supremes June 5 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops June 12 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops June 19 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops June 26 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 3 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 10 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 17 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 24 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 31 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops August 7 In the Midnight Hour Wilson Pickett August 14 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown August 21 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown August 28 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown September 4 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown September 11 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown September 18 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown September 25 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown October 2 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown October 9 I Want To (Do Everything For You) Joe Tex October 16 I Want To (Do Everything For You) Joe Tex October 23 I Want To (Do Everything For You) Joe Tex October 30 Rescue Me Fontella Bass November 6 Rescue Me Fontella Bass November 13 Rescue Me Fontella Bass November 20 Rescue Me Fontella Bass November 27 Ain't That Peculiar Marvin Gaye December 4 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown December 11 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown December 18 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown December 25 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown Obviously these are just the #1's but it looks like the majors had it sown up and any uptown sound is on Motown. However Im guessing if you could get hold of any chart and actually looked through there would be very few "Northern" 45s . 20% perhaps. And most of that on local charts. The amount of stuff getting released as people as you say tried to emulate Motown's success would mean a lot fell by the wayside. No idea how many Northern 60's 45s there are but if we say the prime period for that style of music was say 64-68 then thats a hell of a lot of releases per week. Anyway I still contend that the UK did unearth forgotten 45s and we can be proud of that. The first rapper or R&B act that cites Tyrone Davis as an influence I'll give you my collection. ROD Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest REVILOT Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Anyway I still contend that the UK did unearth forgotten 45s An absolute Chris Bartley Truer Words Were Never Spoken Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
macca Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 As a nation we have long rejoiced in peering back inside the cultures of other races and peoples, long after indigenous interest has faded in artefacts, art forms and other symbolic cultural components. In other words, we came, we saw, we conquered and we carried off as much booty as possible. Most foreign tourists place the British Museum at the top of their list of attractions, if only to marvel at all the stuff we've half inched in the last two centuries. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 I get the point you're making Chorleysoul but I think you're over-emphasising the impact of the 45s that later got played here at their time of release in USA. Here is a list of R&B #1's in 1966 1966 in music, List of number-one R&B hits (United States) Issue Date Song Artist January 1 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown January 8 A Sweet Woman Like You Joe Tex January 15 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown January 22 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder January 29 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder February 5 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder February 12 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder February 19 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder February 26 Baby Scratch My Back Slim Harpo March 5 Baby Scratch My Back Slim Harpo March 12 634-5789 (Soulsville, U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett March 19 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett March 26 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 2 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 9 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 16 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 23 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 30 Get Ready The Temptations May 7 When a Man Loves a Woman Percy Sledge May 14 When a Man Loves a Woman Percy Sledge May 21 When a Man Loves a Woman Percy Sledge May 28 When a Man Loves a Woman Percy Sledge June 4 It's a Man's Man's Man's World James Brown June 11 It's a Man's Man's Man's World James Brown June 18 Hold On! I'm a Comin' Sam & Dave June 25 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations July 2 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations July 9 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations July 16 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations July 23 Let's Go Get Stoned Ray Charles July 30 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations August 6 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations August 13 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations August 20 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations August 27 Blowin' in the Wind Stevie Wonder September 3 You Can't Hurry Love The Supremes September 10 You Can't Hurry Love The Supremes September 17 Land of a Thousand Dances Wilson Pickett September 24 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 1 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 8 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 15 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 22 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 29 Reach Out I'll Be There The Four Tops November 5 Reach Out I'll Be There The Four Tops November 12 Love Is a Hurtin' Thing Lou Rawls November 19 Knock On Wood Eddie Floyd November 26 You Keep Me Hangin' On The Supremes December 3 You Keep Me Hangin' On The Supremes December 10 You Keep Me Hangin' On The Supremes December 17 You Keep Me Hangin' On The Supremes December 24 (I Know) I'm Losing You The Temptations December 31 (I Know) I'm Losing You The Temptations And 1965 Issue Date Song Artist 2 January NO CHART 9 January NO CHART 16 January NO CHART 23 January NO CHART January 30 My Girl The Temptations February 6 My Girl The Temptations February 13 My Girl The Temptations February 20 My Girl The Temptations February 27 My Girl The Temptations March 6 My Girl The Temptations March 13 Shotgun Jr. Walker & the All-Stars March 20 Shotgun Jr. Walker & the All-Stars March 27 Shotgun Jr. Walker & the All-Stars April 3 Got To Get You Off My Mind Solomon Burke April 10 Shotgun Jr. Walker & the All-Stars April 17 Got To Get You Off My Mind Solomon Burke April 24 Got To Get You Off My Mind Solomon Burke May 1 We're Gonna Make It Little Milton May 8 We're Gonna Make It Little Milton May 15 We're Gonna Make It Little Milton May 22 I'll Be Doggone Marvin Gaye May 29 Back in My Arms Again The Supremes June 5 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops June 12 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops June 19 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops June 26 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 3 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 10 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 17 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 24 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 31 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops August 7 In the Midnight Hour Wilson Pickett August 14 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown August 21 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown August 28 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown September 4 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown September 11 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown September 18 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown September 25 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown October 2 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown October 9 I Want To (Do Everything For You) Joe Tex October 16 I Want To (Do Everything For You) Joe Tex October 23 I Want To (Do Everything For You) Joe Tex October 30 Rescue Me Fontella Bass November 6 Rescue Me Fontella Bass November 13 Rescue Me Fontella Bass November 20 Rescue Me Fontella Bass November 27 Ain't That Peculiar Marvin Gaye December 4 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown December 11 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown December 18 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown December 25 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown Obviously these are just the #1's but it looks like the majors had it sown up and any uptown sound is on Motown. However Im guessing if you could get hold of any chart and actually looked through there would be very few "Northern" 45s . 20% perhaps. And most of that on local charts. The amount of stuff getting released as people as you say tried to emulate Motown's success would mean a lot fell by the wayside. No idea how many Northern 60's 45s there are but if we say the prime period for that style of music was say 64-68 then thats a hell of a lot of releases per week. Anyway I still contend that the UK did unearth forgotten 45s and we can be proud of that. The first rapper or R&B act that cites Tyrone Davis as an influence I'll give you my collection. ROD listing the number one R&B hits in the US misses ChorleySoul's entire point about the local-ness and prolificness of the music back in the day. There might not only be a local hit, there might have been multiple groups from the same city with the same name where they didn't know about the other group with the same name in the same city, because the music was such a local phenomenon. Even looking at local charts would look pretty hit-filled but each chart would always have a few surprises and listening to the actual radio would reveal many weird local oddities and going to the stores and finding what people played in their neighborhoods and local jukeboxes would reveal more. Plus are you fucking joking about tyrone davis not being a huge influence? "in the mood" was sampled a bazillion times by rappers and "can I change my mind" gets played by paul schaefer on late night with david letterman, it's like a standard. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 listing the number one R&B hits in the US misses ChorleySoul's entire point about the local-ness and prolificness of the music back in the day. There might not only be a local hit, there might have been multiple groups from the same city with the same name where they didn't know about the other group with the same name in the same city, because the music was such a local phenomenon. Even looking at local charts would look pretty hit-filled but each chart would always have a few surprises and listening to the actual radio would reveal many weird local oddities and going to the stores and finding what people played in their neighborhoods and local jukeboxes would reveal more. Plus are you fucking joking about tyrone davis not being a huge influence? "in the mood" was sampled a bazillion times by rappers and "can I change my mind" gets played by paul schaefer on late night with david letterman, it's like a standard. here's the first google hit I found, you owe me your entire collection: https://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=688385 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
macca Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 He's going to be bringing it all back home Rod. how does it feel? Incidentally, wasn't The Tomangoes a 'local hit? M Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Modernsoulsucks Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 listing the number one R&B hits in the US misses ChorleySoul's entire point about the local-ness and prolificness of the music back in the day. There might not only be a local hit, there might have been multiple groups from the same city with the same name where they didn't know about the other group with the same name in the same city, because the music was such a local phenomenon. Even looking at local charts would look pretty hit-filled but each chart would always have a few surprises and listening to the actual radio would reveal many weird local oddities and going to the stores and finding what people played in their neighborhoods and local jukeboxes would reveal more. Plus are you fucking joking about tyrone davis not being a huge influence? "in the mood" was sampled a bazillion times by rappers and "can I change my mind" gets played by paul schaefer on late night with david letterman, it's like a standard. I thought I said exactly what you are saying in your first paragraph. Thousands and thousands of releases in those 4 years. Major companies [hits]dominating but maybe 20% of what is now termed Northern turning up on national but more likely local [because it was as you say a local phenomena]charts. I am not talking about the sound but the actual 45s by individual groups. If as you say there were even acts with the same name in the same city unaware of each other then that does not suggest any kind of widespread appeal for a lot of releases. It did occur to me after I wrote this, and it's not meant as a definitive argument but things to consider, that I've no idea how R&B US chart was compiled. Over here I think it was "chart-return shops" but Im thinking it may have been radio play in the US. Im saying, and I agree with Chorleysoul, that a lot of the records we term Northern were popular enough to make various US charts but Im sure if we look at a Northern playlist from say 1970 and compare to a later one from 1976 the number of one-time US hits would have decreased dramatically as we dug deeper for those 45s with the right sound. I guess that would be something to do with the scene here starting with obscure [to us] UK releases which of course had been put out over here due to some success in the USA. Again that's not a hard and fast rule with every release over here but generally probably true. OK you've found one current act but out of how many? The offer was only open to Chorleysoul. You shoulda read the small print. However as a token Bobby Goldsboro will be winging it's way to Chicago soon. I forgot about "In the mood" but that's a sample which is not quite the same as an influence. And there's no need to swear. You are grounded. ROD Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest REVILOT Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 if we look at a Northern playlist from say 1970 and compare to a laterone from 1976 the number of one-time US hits would have decreaseddramatically as we dug deeper for those 45s with the right sound. ROD That is the cruscial point. That is what made the Northern Soul scene what it was / is. The constant search for records with that "sound" is what keeps it strong, vibrant etc. It is also obviously true that happened in the UK. The fact that others have embraced the music since is a tribute to both the UK Northern Soul scene AND to the USA artists and producers who made the music. I never had a problem buying records in Manchester and then selling them later on to someone in Glasgow. Now I am buying records from places like Berlin, The internet has made finding records that much more easier. So to sum up the Northern Scene of yesterday and today in 4 words. Celebrate, venerate, share and enjoy. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 So to sum up the Northern Scene of yesterday and today in 4 words. Celebrate, venerate, share and enjoy. If you believe some of the recent threads it's more like Separation, Defamation, Litigation and Extermination Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest REVILOT Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 If you believe some of the recent threads it's more like Separation, Defamation, Litigation and Extermination good point:hypo: Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest SoulRenaissance Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Ton's of modern motown lps dont have pictures on,i think everyone is looking for meaning when there is none they are just covers. My thoughts entirely. It's usually the old conspiracy theory, or the racist theory. So boring. Saw lots of albums in all genres of music that don't have the artist's faces on, and they're white. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 I get the point you're making Chorleysoul but I think you're over-emphasising the impact of the 45s that later got played here at their time of release in USA. Here is a list of R&B #1's in 1966 1966 in music, List of number-one R&B hits (United States) Issue Date Song Artist January 1 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown January 8 A Sweet Woman Like You Joe Tex January 15 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown January 22 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder January 29 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder February 5 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder February 12 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder February 19 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder February 26 Baby Scratch My Back Slim Harpo March 5 Baby Scratch My Back Slim Harpo March 12 634-5789 (Soulsville, U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett March 19 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett March 26 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 2 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 9 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 16 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 23 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 30 Get Ready The Temptations May 7 When a Man Loves a Woman Percy Sledge May 14 When a Man Loves a Woman Percy Sledge May 21 When a Man Loves a Woman Percy Sledge May 28 When a Man Loves a Woman Percy Sledge June 4 It's a Man's Man's Man's World James Brown June 11 It's a Man's Man's Man's World James Brown June 18 Hold On! I'm a Comin' Sam & Dave June 25 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations July 2 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations July 9 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations July 16 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations July 23 Let's Go Get Stoned Ray Charles July 30 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations August 6 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations August 13 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations August 20 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations August 27 Blowin' in the Wind Stevie Wonder September 3 You Can't Hurry Love The Supremes September 10 You Can't Hurry Love The Supremes September 17 Land of a Thousand Dances Wilson Pickett September 24 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 1 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 8 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 15 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 22 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 29 Reach Out I'll Be There The Four Tops November 5 Reach Out I'll Be There The Four Tops November 12 Love Is a Hurtin' Thing Lou Rawls November 19 Knock On Wood Eddie Floyd November 26 You Keep Me Hangin' On The Supremes December 3 You Keep Me Hangin' On The Supremes December 10 You Keep Me Hangin' On The Supremes December 17 You Keep Me Hangin' On The Supremes December 24 (I Know) I'm Losing You The Temptations December 31 (I Know) I'm Losing You The Temptations And 1965 Issue Date Song Artist 2 January NO CHART 9 January NO CHART 16 January NO CHART 23 January NO CHART January 30 My Girl The Temptations February 6 My Girl The Temptations February 13 My Girl The Temptations February 20 My Girl The Temptations February 27 My Girl The Temptations March 6 My Girl The Temptations March 13 Shotgun Jr. Walker & the All-Stars March 20 Shotgun Jr. Walker & the All-Stars March 27 Shotgun Jr. Walker & the All-Stars April 3 Got To Get You Off My Mind Solomon Burke April 10 Shotgun Jr. Walker & the All-Stars April 17 Got To Get You Off My Mind Solomon Burke April 24 Got To Get You Off My Mind Solomon Burke May 1 We're Gonna Make It Little Milton May 8 We're Gonna Make It Little Milton May 15 We're Gonna Make It Little Milton May 22 I'll Be Doggone Marvin Gaye May 29 Back in My Arms Again The Supremes June 5 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops June 12 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops June 19 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops June 26 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 3 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 10 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 17 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 24 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 31 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops August 7 In the Midnight Hour Wilson Pickett August 14 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown August 21 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown August 28 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown September 4 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown September 11 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown September 18 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown September 25 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown October 2 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown October 9 I Want To (Do Everything For You) Joe Tex October 16 I Want To (Do Everything For You) Joe Tex October 23 I Want To (Do Everything For You) Joe Tex October 30 Rescue Me Fontella Bass November 6 Rescue Me Fontella Bass November 13 Rescue Me Fontella Bass November 20 Rescue Me Fontella Bass November 27 Ain't That Peculiar Marvin Gaye December 4 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown December 11 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown December 18 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown December 25 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown Obviously these are just the #1's but it looks like the majors had it sown up and any uptown sound is on Motown. However Im guessing if you could get hold of any chart and actually looked through there would be very few "Northern" 45s . 20% perhaps. And most of that on local charts. The amount of stuff getting released as people as you say tried to emulate Motown's success would mean a lot fell by the wayside. No idea how many Northern 60's 45s there are but if we say the prime period for that style of music was say 64-68 then thats a hell of a lot of releases per week. Anyway I still contend that the UK did unearth forgotten 45s and we can be proud of that. The first rapper or R&B act that cites Tyrone Davis as an influence I'll give you my collection. ROD I think you've missed my point Rod. I'm not saying we did not discover and champion a lot of records! I have actually stated that the volume/turnover on the scene demanded the unearthing of rarer records and that is where the British 'exploring' mentality kicked in! As for the 'Uptown' sound, I have a album released in 1964 called 'Uptown Soul' and it contains amongst other things a 'live' rendition of 'Mixed up shook up girl' by PATTIE AND THE EMBLEMS! THE UPTOWN THEATRE was I believe in Chicago or Philadelphia which was where that recording took place. The 'Uptown' sound was certainly not limited to MOTOWN, it is a genre I believe that covers many other cities such as New York, Philly, Chicago etc. Also, as you have admitted, by limiting your 'charts' to number 1s has excluded possibly thousands of records - if we are talking about the R'n'B top 100, which I was...If indeed there was 20 per cent of those actually representing bona fide 'northern' 45s, I think that would be bloody remarkable and an endorsement of my point not a negative! (I'd be surprised if it was that high myself, if you could really examine the thousands of Soul records that appeared in that list from 64-69.) But lets remember something else. It was the lack of promotional power that caused the failure of a large amount of the records you are referring to. In that respect, people living in New York were as unlikely to pick up on rare 'northern' releases in 1965 as people living in Manchester that year! Especially given the regional factors, the radio demographics and the size of America. It was extremely hard for those small labels to 'fund' a local hit let alone get the record onto national radio. The chances of people in California picking up on an obscure New Jersey label's tiny output in that era were as such almost impossible and these are the relevant aspects, not a collective failure to recognise the quality of Soul Muisc on behalf of in particular, Black Americans. I go to New York every year and travel about and I have been very surprised time and again to hear Soul shows in America playing records that I thought would be not be on their radar. It is a fascinating subject actually, wish I had the time and money to be able to afford to fook off over there to research it for a couple of years! Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 In other words, we came, we saw, we conquered and we carried off as much booty as possible. Most foreign tourists place the British Museum at the top of their list of attractions, if only to marvel at all the stuff we've half inched in the last two centuries. It would not surprise me if one day there is a few cases showing prize items and dedicated to The Northern Soul Pioneers!' Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 If you believe some of the recent threads it's more like Separation, Defamation, Litigation and Extermination Cronyism, conspiracies, censorship and cynicism Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 That is the cruscial point. That is what made the Northern Soul scene what it was / is. The constant search for records with that "sound" is what keeps it strong, vibrant etc. It is also obviously true that happened in the UK. The fact that others have embraced the music since is a tribute to both the UK Northern Soul scene AND to the USA artists and producers who made the music. I never had a problem buying records in Manchester and then selling them later on to someone in Glasgow. Now I am buying records from places like Berlin, The internet has made finding records that much more easier. So to sum up the Northern Scene of yesterday and today in 4 words. Celebrate, venerate, share and enjoy. Great post Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 (edited) modernsoulsucks, on Today, 11:56 AM, said:if we look at a Northern playlist from say 1970 and compare to a laterone from 1976 the number of one-time US hits would have decreaseddramatically as we dug deeper for those 45s with the right sound. ROD As I stated i.e 'the sheer volume/turnover of records demanded the unearthing of rarer gems'.... We are actually saying the same thing in a lot of places! Edited September 4, 2009 by chorleysoul Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Kind of imagined BOBO or somebody would pick up on the TYRONE DAVIS aspect tho! My youngest brother (40) is a HIP HOP fanatic and he rates 'Can I change my mind' as one of his all time favourite records! Of course his tracks have been sampled but TYRONE'S influence runs deeper than that; many, many of his own tunes are essentially 'versions' or restructurings vocally of riffs and passages that he has already enjoyed creative success with. This practise can be viewed as a notably apparent blueprint for some of the actual musical practises of HIP HOP/RAP. In fact, he is one of the most prominently musically influential Soul acts as regards these technical aspects. Did not realise the offer was only open to me tho ROD or I'd have been quicker off the ball! Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Spacehopper Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 bloody 'ell.....havnt read most of the posts on this thread as theyre going off on way too many tangents for me to keep up ! this is my 2 pennies worth....as far as the first post saying because of the internet too many tunes are going abroad...i was only thinkin earlier while trawling thru ebay and all the various dealer sites how much music was coming INTO the country ! its a global market as with everything else.....and thats a good thing...should we send all the lammies back to italy and india? ofcourse not.....people often talk about uk youngsters not getting into the scene enuff....so i welcome the world waking up to this great scene...if nothing else in 20 years time when there COULD be lots of collections for sale to pay for our old age there will still be a market and we wouldnt have wasted our money... and at least we talkin bout sumfin different...not the old OVO topic Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Kind of imagined BOBO or somebody would pick up on the TYRONE DAVIS aspect tho! BOBO? Didn't know he was on here. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Modernsoulsucks Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 (edited) I think you've missed my point Rod. I'm not saying we did not discover and champion a lot of records! I have actually stated that the volume/turnover on the scene demanded the unearthing of rarer records and that is where the British 'exploring' mentality kicked in! As for the 'Uptown' sound, I have a album released in 1964 called 'Uptown Soul' and it contains amongst other things a 'live' rendition of 'Mixed up shook up girl' by PATTIE AND THE EMBLEMS! THE UPTOWN THEATRE was I believe in Chicago or Philadelphia which was where that recording took place. The 'Uptown' sound was certainly not limited to MOTOWN, it is a genre I believe that covers many other cities such as New York, Philly, Chicago etc. Also, as you have admitted, by limiting your 'charts' to number 1s has excluded possibly thousands of records - if we are talking about the R'n'B top 100, which I was...If indeed there was 20 per cent of those actually representing bona fide 'northern' 45s, I think that would be bloody remarkable and an endorsement of my point not a negative! (I'd be surprised if it was that high myself, if you could really examine the thousands of Soul records that appeared in that list from 64-69.) But lets remember something else. It was the lack of promotional power that caused the failure of a large amount of the records you are referring to. In that respect, people living in New York were as unlikely to pick up on rare 'northern' releases in 1965 as people living in Manchester that year! Especially given the regional factors, the radio demographics and the size of America. It was extremely hard for those small labels to 'fund' a local hit let alone get the record onto national radio. The chances of people in California picking up on an obscure New Jersey label's tiny output in that era were as such almost impossible and these are the relevant aspects, not a collective failure to recognise the quality of Soul Muisc on behalf of in particular, Black Americans. I go to New York every year and travel about and I have been very surprised time and again to hear Soul shows in America playing records that I thought would be not be on their radar. It is a fascinating subject actually, wish I had the time and money to be able to afford to fook off over there to research it for a couple of years! I meant that the "uptown" sound as far as #1's go is represented by Motown in the main. I think Fontella Bass is there too. I dont think "uptown" as a whole can be equated with Northern because the phrase refers to a slicker more polished style of soul which included all tempos and of course artists coming under that umbrella like the Impressions, O'Jays, Jackie Wilson, Delfonics had a repertoire much wider than just danceable records modelled on Motown. The #1 chart from 65 and 66, which I chose as the two years from which many Northern 45s originate, shows that "uptown" was not an all-pervasive music form which swept America but one of many styles existing alongside each other from early JB funk to the grittier Atlantic/Stax sound. Without full charts it is only guesswork but working on an R&B Top 40 [i thought it was 40 and the Hot 100 was all styles of music] AND local charts 20% of those 45s making the charts would be classed as Northern, and a lot of those will be Motown and those records we stumbled upon in the early days. That's not 20% of all Northern records made these charts. And thinking about it you're most likely right there that it's less than 20%. Whilst Im sure lack of promotion, various forms of payola and the limited wattage of Black Music radio stations [limiting their reach outside a local area/city] were responsible for the lack of success of many records I don't think that's the whole story as to why most Northern 45s died a death. I'd put forward the theory that the way the music caught on over here was through the clubs with teenagers leading the way. In the US Im not so sure you would have had such clubs especially with the strict drinking laws and the music would have been heard predominantly on the radio and at parties. I don't think the Sweet Things on a 60's radio or record player is gonna sound anything like it does booming out over a good system. The impact of such records perhaps was not as evident back then? And of course if you're living in Detroit why go somewhere to hear a DJ play 45s when you can just go and see the act. Anyway I do agree that it wasn't that at the time Black America didn't like the sound but just that in a lot of instances they didn't get to hear it. They do have that opportunity now with the advent of re-issue CDs from here, Europe,and the USA and as you say you have been surprised by what you've heard. If it's on the radio it's probably a CD unless a specialist show but I don't think any of that would be possible if it wasn't for the UK. However I dont think it's actually impacted on those who were actually there in the 60's/70's whom you would think might have a liking for this type of music. From my experience of visiting Chicago on numerous occasions back in the late 80's/early 90's the Dusty's station [and one time visiting a club with around 300 people, maybe more, age range 30-50 say] only played the odd Chicago 60's local release and the main emphasis was on the 70's. I think there was one specialist show late at night at a weekend. At the club the dj did play "The Drifter" and "Forget about me" but no one was dancing and they were the only 60's sounds I can remember hearing as they were played one after another. People's Choice "Do it anyway you wanna" had them all up twice doing a "line" dance. I couldn't help feeling a little disappointed that all that great music originating out of that city hadn't featured at all. ROD Edited September 5, 2009 by modernsoulsucks Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
ALIVE'N'KICKIN Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 is this thread still going....... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 BOBO? Didn't know he was on here. dave thorley and baz also call me bobo, anyways, this one is better Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I think there was one specialist show late at night at a weekend. you possibly heard richard pegue Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Russ Vickers Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Its not 'our' music, its for all to enjoy & was made with that intention..............my frustration lies in the fact, that the ethos the NS was founded upon, seems to have largely dissappeared, I'm talking about the passion for finding & playing to a wider audience relatively unknown artists & groups that deserved wider recognition. That should still be the main priority & there are thousands of records, CD's & MP3's out there yet to discover, if collectors & DJ's are on top of thier game they out there for all to collect, play, dance to & enjoy, regardless of your country of origin............ Best Russ Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
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