Our Music

[Dave Rimmer]

indeed all Spaniards should be ashamed of introducing chicken pox and horses to South America,

Just out of interest, I can understand the Chicken Pox bit, but horses ?

[boba]

Dave both of you (although Mr. Rimmer)

I'm living and born in Germany and I can assure you that everybody, that collects or djs northern soul records, knows how this fabulous music came to them. Via Britain!

But I think this topic is absolutly rubbish. Who's is the owner of a cultural property? And do thiss persons have a kind of an unquestionable right to it? Isn't it nearly the same, to say in a nationalistic way that the others, out side your own country, should not be allowed to buy "your countries own" records, than claiming that the racist whites in the USA did not allow the black music to get into their culture? Isn't it just two kinds of borders you are building up? I tell you what as a cultural historian/ethnologist, it's nearly always the same with a group and the others, who are not part of it. It's always us and the others: white and black america - britain and the rest of the world. That's why nationalism and racism are not too far away from another. I don't want to say you are a nationalist, but some of your arbuments can be interpretered that way.

Cheers

Martin

this thread is awesome.

my whole point is exactly what you were saying -- I was saying that 1) people should have some basic respect for the origins of the culture (which is definitely not always true on here, whether or not I know jack-squat about "northern soul") but 2) as long as you didn't originate the cultural objects in the first place, it's a totally ridiculous argument to whine about how "our objects" are being taken overseas (which was the original post). That's all.

If you read my argument, I was was not making any first-class claims to the records as an american like people in this thread are claiming I am (as if they were some artifacts of a country that should be returned to that country), I was saying whoever values them the most should have them. Anyways, this thread was a fun read.

[Modernsoulsucks]

Just out of interest, I can understand the Chicken Pox bit, but horses ?

Early inhabitants are thought to have hunted them to extinction for food. Re-introduced by the Spanish which is a good job really cos running around the wagon train wouldn't have been half as impressive.

ROD

[Modernsoulsucks]

this thread is awesome.

my whole point is exactly what you were saying -- I was saying that 1) people should have some basic respect for the origins of the culture (which is definitely not always true on here, whether or not I know jack-squat about "northern soul") but 2) as long as you didn't originate the cultural objects in the first place, it's a totally ridiculous argument to whine about how "our objects" are being taken overseas (which was the original post). That's all.

If you read my argument, I was was not making any first-class claims to the records as an american like people in this thread are claiming I am (as if they were some artifacts of a country that should be returned to that country), I was saying whoever values them the most should have them. Anyways, this thread was a fun read.

Like totally Boba!

Im not too sure on "origins of the culture" as I woulda thought the culture was British but the music was almost all American.

And at one time it was probably quite possible to play all night music that perhaps owed very little if not anything to Black America at all. Paul Anka, Bell Boys, Rufus Lumly, 7 Dwarves, Beverly Anne, Levi Jackson, Dean Parrish. You get the idea.

ROD

[paultp]

So forget 45s as a commodity or a heritage we have to protect and maybe just a wry smile that what we started has a good night out has evolved into a multi-faceted phenomena.

ROD

That's a far too sensible comment for this thread.

In fact it's probably one of the most sensible things I've read on the site. Nice one.

[Davenpete]

Paul Anka, Bell Boys, Rufus Lumly, 7 Dwarves, Beverly Anne, Levi Jackson, Dean Parrish. You get the idea.

ROD

Those were the days

Dave

[boba]

Like totally Boba!

Im not too sure on "origins of the culture" as I woulda thought the culture was British but the music was almost all American.

And at one time it was probably quite possible to play all night music that perhaps owed very little if not anything to Black America at all. Paul Anka, Bell Boys, Rufus Lumly, 7 Dwarves, Beverly Anne, Levi Jackson, Dean Parrish. You get the idea.

ROD

unrelated, you know the bellboys are the same group as the three rivers blues band on kama sutra / lion and are from PA and not ohio? chris anderton put me in contact with the guy. the guy went to high school and managed other PA area groups (white and Black groups).

[Guest sarahleen]

FFS get the St Georges cross out and burn a few of these honky Americans on it, sacrifice them in the name of the UK England who saved the ass of those Black Boys in America and brought that music home!!

Sorry Dave no 2 (i.e. not Mr, Rimmer) what a pile of pathetic trash you have written, xenophobia with a liberal touch on it, why not generalise a little more and say all Americans are stupid.

I would suggest 95%, and yes it is a guess, of the Northern scene today, and large chunks of the past don't give a flying f**k about the history of the artists, the music, the culture or any of the politics that make up the world that created Soul music, they like the Northern Soul scene and records, period. A very different proposition. That is evidenced daily on here. I would suggest there is a similar proportion of people on the Northern scene as there is in real life, which is far greater in this country than people will admit or see, are racists, so don't make out our "scene" is completely whiter than white, pardon the pun. Making such a sweeping statement about white America just shows how little you have actually thought about that statement.

Dave No 1 (i.e. that is Mr Rimmer) I am completely amazed at your statement. Is there anyone else on this site, and possibly out of thius site, that is doing more to record and celebrate and most importantly document Black American artists than Boba, oh and actually give the artists something back? FFS I am shocked at your response given your efforts in past to do exactly that. Can you genuinely say all of this scene cares about the artists than the records?

I totally agree with Bob the first statement was a ridiculous statement, you say yourself until recently the records have been in Japan, so exactly what is the relevance of the opening statement? Or is the problem Bob has insulted the scene and must be put to right, FFS there is a lot to insult when you think about it, particularly if you want to talk about its relevance to a wider Black American music world. As for saving the records, lets not get all high and mighty here, for most of us thats all it was, getting a piece of plastic, it certainly did not return anything to the artists that made it.

I agree his comments are misguided about Europe but again its easy to see why based on here, maybe time to look outside the world that is Northern Soul and see us for how the world would see us.....

and (shock horror) some people just want to dance to it !

[Modernsoulsucks]

unrelated, you know the bellboys are the same group as the three rivers blues band on kama sutra / lion and are from PA and not ohio? chris anderton put me in contact with the guy. the guy went to high school and managed other PA area groups (white and Black groups).

I didn't know that Boba and trust you to pick on one of the only two things in the entire World that I don't know about, the other being the exact breakdown of votes in the House of Commons leading to the 1846 Repeal of the Corn Laws.

ROD

[Modernsoulsucks]

That's a far too sensible comment for this thread.

In fact it's probably one of the most sensible things I've read on the site. Nice one.

Purely unintentional. I wanted to finish on a joke but couldn't think of one.

ROD

[Jaco]

I didn't know that Boba and trust you to pick on one of the only two things in the entire World that I don't know about, the other being the exact breakdown of votes in the House of Commons leading to the 1846 Repeal of the Corn Laws.

ROD

327 to 229.

[KevH]

Early inhabitants are thought to have hunted them to extinction for food. Re-introduced by the Spanish which is a good job really cos running around the wagon train wouldn't have been half as impressive.

ROD

Here you go Rod.Sure there's an ender joke in here......Did the Spanish hunt chickens to extinction?.So horses with Chicken pox nearly wiped out the South Americans,and not the Spanish invaders?

[Pete Eccles]

Purely unintentional. I wanted to finish on a joke but couldn't think of one.

ROD

Thankfully

[macca]

Don't we get our knickers in a twist at times chaps?

I think it's great that the scene has burst its

banks/borders. I stress the use of the word scene

here because the US is inarguably the source of

the music, largely ignored by consumers over there.

So I for one will continue to take records out of the UK,

with your permission of course.

[Modernsoulsucks]

Here you go Rod.Sure there's an ender joke in here......Did the Spanish hunt chickens to extinction?.So horses with Chicken pox nearly wiped out the South Americans,and not the Spanish invaders?

You know that's spooky. I was thinking that if somewhere early man decided that the horse made a better beast of burden than a food source how come they never thought of building a sled and harnessing 200 chickens to it. Or tried to ride a sheep [except in Wales].

Thanks Jaco. I was saving that for my retirement.

ROD

Edited September 1, 2009 by modernsoulsucks

[macca]

And this from a country that refuses to return the Elgin Marbles to Greece. Hypocrites!

[Godzilla]

And this from a country that refuses to return the Elgin Marbles to Greece. Hypocrites!

Maybe we could return Rod's gags to ancient Greece. That's where the majority originated.

[Dunc]

This topic is like world war three. And it was started in the late 1960s in the north of england ( eee by gum) by like minded people wi vision. FULL STOP

if u get me gist

[KevH]

And this from a country that refuses to return the Elgin Marbles to Greece. Hypocrites!

The clue is in Elgin Macca.Elgin,Scotlandshire.Greece stole them from Scotland after they built Hadrians Wall.And its Hyppocrates.

Glad to be of help.

[paultp]

And this from a country that refuses to return the Elgin Marbles to Greece. Hypocrites!

Well perhaps Elgin should have left them there? Then they wouldn't be in existence today for people to squabble over where they are kept.

Sorry, that was ridiculously off topic. I'm ashamed of myself already.

[Guest REVILOT]

Just got The Elgin Marbles on a white demo from Benji

Records going out more than coming in.??

I have been telling my mrs that for years but she knows different ............

The truth is Northern Soul , as a scene, was a UK invention but we didnt patent it.

The music was from America - true

I remeber Rod bringing an American guy to my house about 20? years ago.

He said he could find more records here than in the states.

Alot of Europeans like it - great.

If they buy them its because we are selling it too them :]

No need to panic, just keep hold of the good ones:whistling:

When the Chinese get into Northern Soul that is the time to panic.

because experts say that if every family in China bought one Okeh demo each and they all dropped them at the same time it would be

a shame.

Anyway no matter where the records are we can all gather together and have refo soul nights

[Guest Paul]

...When the Chinese get into Northern Soul that is the time to panic...

If that ever happens we'll see thousands of cheap bootlegs on eBay ...they'll probably even sell fake bootlegs!

They'll issue records on "authentic" labels such as Armani, Nike, Rolex, Adidas, Reebok, Lonsdale, etc.

[macca]

Well perhaps Elgin should have left them there? Then they wouldn't be in existence today for people to squabble over where they are kept.

Sorry, that was ridiculously off topic. I'm ashamed of myself already.

well nick the greek might not have been that capable of looking after his stuff 150 years ago, or whenever it was that Lord Elgin 'acquired' them, but that excuse is wearing a bit thin in 2009. Some might call it paternalistic claptrap. I too am ashamed for the offtopicness of the post.

[Mark Bicknell]

Bugger me and I thought after all these years that the music came from Wigan.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Guest rushden]

G'day mate,

Hope ya going come and plunder hundreds more Usa soul records this year mate , got a thousand priced around 2 quid each .

https://www.goldcoastnorthernsoulnational2009.com/

looks like it be going 4 days going be hugh best John

North Wales was in from the start, you don't know much about the early days mate, lots of your rarities have come from here in the first place and not the other way around.

[Guest SoulRenaissance]

well nick the greek might not have been that capable of looking after his stuff 150 years ago, or whenever it was that Lord Elgin 'acquired' them, but that excuse is wearing a bit thin in 2009. Some might call it paternalistic claptrap. I too am ashamed for the offtopicness of the post.

And i was thinking the Elgin marbles had been returned? You learn something new on here everyday.

Picking up on a few points over the thread. Despite a small percentage of album covers changing them to suit, aren't there 100's, or is that 1000's that haven't? If so that was then, not so now.

Racism, or the debate rears it's head again. I hate black/ gangsta rap. Does that make me a racist?

Okay many white Americans didn't buy black music because they were racist. I'm sure many more didn't buy it simply because it wasn't their cup of tea. Have spoken to a few, and they don't know nothing of soul. It's not because they're racist.

I don't know nothing about jungle, so what?

Could it be that many records are going abroad because us Brits these days don't have as much disposable income as we used to, not because we don't care?

And despite some saying the Americans didn't buy soul, even black folks is patently not true. Some of these tunes, even the so called obscurer ones sold by the thousand. More than some that were in the top 20 back in the 90's. Not just the hits.

Martyn

[Jordirip]

And despite some saying the Americans didn't buy soul, even black folks is patently not true. Some of these tunes, even the so called obscurer ones sold by the thousand. More than some that were in the top 20 back in the 90's. Not just the hits.

Martyn

I agree with you Mart, lots of what we like were local neighbourhood 'hits', big in the local dancehalls, a bit like Jamaica, although they didn't get the national exposure due to many different reasons not least being good distribution deals, dishonest deals/management, or the fact that most people tend to go with what's currently 'hot', meant that things probably didn't last too long before the next dance craze took over. When you've got talent spilling over like black America had in the 60's and 70's (and still does), it was probably less likely that people would hark back to halcyon times of 'good' music, but more likely try and be part of the next 'hot' style.

Jordi

[Guest Polyvelts]

Personally I pray everyday that those lovely people in Europe continue to love 'our' (I dont think so !!!) music and continue to do so and their scenes grow and grow because in 25 years time when I'm a skint penniless pensioner with no pension at least

I will have someone to sell these funny little pieces of plastic to so I can buy some beans on toast. I imagine a one or two records might be on the market, it would be good if there was a generation of people interested enough in them to buy 'em.

God, I've actually depressed myself now ! ha ha

[viphitman]

By the way....

There is already a mod soul scene in Asia... Japan, Thailand, Singapore and also ...................... Northern Soul / Mod Club Nights in..... Shanghai!!

DJ Sacco is playing regulary Mod Sounds and Northern Soul @ The Beaver & The Logo in SHANGHAI!!!! So, some people got the bug and it will probably develope like in Europe in the 80's.... first casettes (well; in the Eastern Block at least) ...than boots/ reissues and finally a Soul Szene geared towards OVO !!!!! I think it's fantastic and you lot have a new pension scheme!!!!!!

[Guest SoulRenaissance]

Personally I pray everyday that those lovely people in Europe continue to love 'our' (I dont think so !!!) music and continue to do so and their scenes grow and grow because in 25 years time when I'm a skint penniless pensioner with no pension at least

I will have someone to sell these funny little pieces of plastic to so I can buy some beans on toast. I imagine a one or two records might be on the market, it would be good if there was a generation of people interested enough in them to buy 'em.

God, I've actually depressed myself now ! ha ha

Don't worry about it, we all get old someday.

[Guest SoulRenaissance]

I agree with you Mart, lots of what we like were local neighbourhood 'hits', big in the local dancehalls, a bit like Jamaica, although they didn't get the national exposure due to many different reasons not least being good distribution deals, dishonest deals/management, or the fact that most people tend to go with what's currently 'hot', meant that things probably didn't last too long before the next dance craze took over. When you've got talent spilling over like black America had in the 60's and 70's (and still does), it was probably less likely that people would hark back to halcyon times of 'good' music, but more likely try and be part of the next 'hot' style.

Jordi

Further to that, and the point i was trying to make on this racism nonsense that is used everytime this sort of thread crops up. Is that there are people who've never heard of soul. People who've never heard of jungle. Are we to assume then that all white people in America were racist, because they either didn't know about soul. Or didn't particularly like it? I think it's a nonsense point.

Also this about album covers. I've always wondered about the amount of album covers without black faces on them? I've got the Barbara Lewis album with the the young white girl on. I've read that Ollie Mclaughlin was 'paranoid' about her weight, so wouldn't let her tour England or something, is this true? And does it explain why there is no picture of her on the cover? Why does he have the Capitols on the cover of their album, if he was bowing to white pressure from the establishement?

The other one about Motown albums. The only ones i can recall off hand is Junior Walker "Road runner" with no black faces on, and The Isley "Soul on the rocks". I have between 60-100 Motown albums and all have black faces on them, apart from odd reissue ones. And that goes for the soul ones in my possesion generally.

Weren't there a lot of white albums from the 60's onwards without faces on?

Martyn

[pikeys dog]

The other one about Motown albums. The only ones i can recall off hand is Junior Walker "Road runner" with no black faces on, and The Isley "Soul on the rocks". I have between 60-100 Motown albums and all have black faces on them, apart from odd reissue ones. And that goes for the soul ones in my possesion generally.

Weren't there a lot of white albums from the 60's onwards without faces on?

Martyn

Off the top of my head:

Bye Bye Baby - Mary Wells

Please Mr Postman - Marvellettes

Come and get these Memories - Martha and the Vandellas

Dance Party - Martha and the Vandellas

Mickeys Monkey - The Miracles

I'll Pick A Rose - Marv Johnson

All had non artist covers.

All this could be because some of the artists mentioned weren't very 'photogenic'.

[John A]

And you don't get what my post was about mate. And my rarities came from the States or Germany, by the way...

i got it and thought it was hilarious,,and i'm a soft southern poof

[Guest SoulRenaissance]

Off the top of my head:

Bye Bye Baby - Mary Wells

Please Mr Postman - Marvellettes

Come and get these Memories - Martha and the Vandellas

Dance Party - Martha and the Vandellas

Mickeys Monkey - The Miracles

I'll Pick A Rose - Marv Johnson

All had non artist covers.

All this could be because some of the artists mentioned weren't very 'photogenic'.

Add 'Vintage stock' Mary Wells, although it came after the 'My guy' album which did have Mary's photo on the front.

[Hermanthegerman]

Could someone be so kind and enlighten me, please:

Since when is England not a part of Europe anymore? Did I miss the war of secession on the news?

[Guest]

No - Never saw that Bob.

Love the Companions - but can't imagine the 'Fake Brit' version is anything to write home about.

Even the authentic stuff is pretty bloody awful!

Sean

Now there's a good idea for a nice, friendly thread with plenty of interesting points and no major arguments or bust ups.....

SOUL ORIGINALS and BRITISH COVERS anybody???? I'll stay out of that one, Sean!

[Guest]

Regardless of the other points I'd like to know how you'd achieve this? Are you seriously suggesting that anyone who auctions or a sells a record set sale should make the buyers country of origin the highest priority? In the case of an auction, more so that whoever is willing to pay the highest price?

And what about Brits who have moved to other countries - are they barred from buying records?

Actually I can't believe I'm replying to this - it's the most nonsensical proposition I've seen in ages. In fact it's clearly a wind up. Got us all going for a bit there Garysoul. Well done mate

There is an old saying I am sure you are aware of Godz.

When good men stay silent....

[Modernsoulsucks]

There is an old saying I am sure you are aware of Godz.

When good men stay silent....

I know this! Wait! "....... they're probably married and can't get a word in edgeways?"

ROD

[Guest]

Like totally Boba!

Im not too sure on "origins of the culture" as I woulda thought the culture was British but the music was almost all American.

And at one time it was probably quite possible to play all night music that perhaps owed very little if not anything to Black America at all. Paul Anka, Bell Boys, Rufus Lumly, 7 Dwarves, Beverly Anne, Levi Jackson, Dean Parrish. You get the idea.

ROD

Actually, thats a bit of a skewed statement, Rod, even tho I know what you mean....

Those records OWE quite a bit to the sounds and styles originated by Black Americans but that is taking us painfully close to a difficult subject we have already ripped to pieces!

[macca]

Could someone be so kind and enlighten me, please:

Since when is England not a part of Europe anymore? Did I miss the war of secession on the news?

Don't get 'em started Herman or we'll be here until the cows come home.

[Godzilla]

Don't get 'em started Herman or we'll be here until the cows come home.

They're not taking our cows as well now are they

[Guest]

Add 'Vintage stock' Mary Wells, although it came after the 'My guy' album which did have Mary's photo on the front.

Ton's of modern motown lps dont have pictures on,i think everyone is looking for meaning when there is none they are just covers.

[Hermanthegerman]

Don't get 'em started Herman or we'll be here until the cows come home.

It was worth a try...:thumbup:

[Modernsoulsucks]

Im getting confused now.

Motown albums don't have pictures of cows on because the Germans have nicht 'em.

ROD

Edited September 3, 2009 by modernsoulsucks

[Godzilla]

Im getting connfused now.

Motown albums don't have pictures of cows on because the Germans have nicht 'em.

ROD

in the nacht

[Hermanthegerman]

It´s simple: We don´t buy british records with cows on the cover because all your cows have BSE.

I´ll take my coat

[Richard Bayley]

Could someone be so kind and enlighten me, please:

Since when is England not a part of Europe anymore? Did I miss the war of secession on the news?

It's more worrying than that Gerd....... Soul Source is obviously now the home of all that secret geological information that they are keeping secret

"The Continental Drifters"........ great band name for a cover-up!

[Guest]

I agree with you Mart, lots of what we like were local neighbourhood 'hits', big in the local dancehalls, a bit like Jamaica, although they didn't get the national exposure due to many different reasons not least being good distribution deals, dishonest deals/management, or the fact that most people tend to go with what's currently 'hot', meant that things probably didn't last too long before the next dance craze took over. When you've got talent spilling over like black America had in the 60's and 70's (and still does), it was probably less likely that people would hark back to halcyon times of 'good' music, but more likely try and be part of the next 'hot' style.

Jordi

After wading through this discussion, I think this is the best post on the thread. Black Americans and Jamaicans do indeed move swiftly through musical trends, fashions and styles and the 'next big thing' is eagerly greeted and adopted in these communites.

There do seem to be some fundamental misunderstandings abounding though and they actually then ensure more confusion. Firstly, the idea that Americans turned their back on this music and Britain somehow 'rescued' it is seriously flawed. In addition to the huge sales warranted by Motown, Stax and Atlantic, many, many of the records we know as 'Northern Soul' classics were in fact, 'hits' on the US R'N'B charts first time out. That is the reason that masterpieces such as JACKIE WILSON 'Whispers getting louder' and so many others of that ilk can still be picked up so cheaply - because there was bucketloads of them sold! Across the states, in all the major cities and even in smaller towns, there was a large network of clubs and dancehalls in the 60s in which the 'Uptown Soul' sound was the principal musical engine. As JORDI has identified, these aspects only faded out when trends changed (primarily this means the birth of Funk) and Black American consumers, along with a considerable amount of whites quickly followed the tastes and adjustments of the musicians.

But 'Uptown Soul' or whatever you want to call it, certainly had a good run in the 60s and millions of Soul records were indeed sold in the USA, so lets not imagine we somehow had 'ears' that nobody else possessed! The determination to cherish and maintain that 'Uptown' sound was what made the original UK Northern scene unique, as opposed to the land of it's origin, whereby Soul fans simply moved on and embraced new sounds, styles and rythyms. The moniker 'The land that time forgot' was/is indeed apt for the UK scene but I don't think anybody thought the scene would last this long back in 1970!

It is that time factor and the sheer volume/turnover of records featured that ensured that the US was plundered for ever rarer and subsequently high priced 'gems'. The fact that the UK Northern scene has developed a now worldwide market and a hunger for ultra-scarce items, does not mean Americans did not appreciate Soul. In fact the determination of so many miniscule labels to try and get records out, with no promotion budgets and little hope therefore of noticeable sales - is a reflection of the power of the 'Soul boom' in the 60s. For a few years, everybody and his nephew wanted to get in on the act!

When the 'boom' passed and these type of records were left in its slipstream, that is when the particularly British 'habits' emerged! As a nation we have long rejoiced in peering back inside the cultures of other races and peoples, long after indigenous interest has faded in artefacts, art forms and other symbolic cultural components. The All-Nighter scene and all its subsequent offshoots and evolutions over the last 40 years, has been constructed as a type of holy temple to house all these dusty 'trophies' ever since and the semi-jingoistic nature of the original postings comes I believe, as an indirect result of all this.

The truth is very simple. For some reason, there was an element of the original 60s 'Uptown' Soul sound that struck an instinctive musical and emotional chord inside the hearts of thousands of British teenagers. After constructing an essentially 'retro' scene (leaving the 'Modern' aspects and debates aside)

to celebrate it, this generation then, in a quintessentially British manner, proceeded to wholeheartedly follow and research this music into middle age. As a result, some people, albeit through passion and affection, have mistakenly concluded that 60s American 'Uptown Soul' is somehow the emotional and - now physical property - of the British!

It is not. Black American gave this music to the world and if there really are young people hungering to own these records in countries across the globe, then it is an amazing development. Besides, there are still plenty of people in this country who will go to their graves with very impressive collections intact! As SEAN pointed out, it will be a long time before the British Black Vinyl Mountain evaporates.

Edited September 3, 2009 by chorleysoul

[Hermanthegerman]

It's more worrying than that Gerd....... Soul Source is obviously now the home of all that secret geological information that they are keeping secret

"The Continental Drifters"........ great band name for a cover-up!

So in which direction is Britain drifting, towards North America ?

That would make the whole discussion go bang.

[Guest]

So in which direction is Britain drifting, towards North America ?

That would make the whole discussion go bang.

In too many directions unfortunately and yes I am sure it will all end in tears