Our Music

[Guest garysoul82]

Its always been my concern that due to auctions/internet,the rarerities in this country are slowy being filtered out of this country.

The northern scene started in our country so shouldnt dealers/sellers ensure these records remain here.

i know its stupid,but i can see a tlme when one of our top djs/collectors will have to go to begium,germany etc yo bid for a record.

will we ever get these records back.

[boba]

Its always been my concern that due to auctions/internet,the rarerities in this country are slowy being filtered out of this country.

The northern scene started in our country so shouldnt dealers/sellers ensure these records remain here.

i know its stupid,but i can see a tlme when one of our top djs/collectors will have to go to begium,germany etc yo bid for a record.

will we ever get these records back.

guess what, "your music" was taken "abroad" already from its point of origin where people came and paid pennies for records that were shipped overseas and sold for hundreds of pounds, pretty arrogant attitude for you to have.

[Tai-pan]

guess what, "your music" was taken "abroad" already from its point of origin where people came and paid pennies for records that were shipped overseas and sold for hundreds of pounds, pretty arrogant attitude for you to have.

I think the point being made Bob was that the "Northern Scene" was started in England, and its that same scene that took all these records from their penny worthliness and turned them into valuable collectables they are today. I don't think it was meant arrogantly at all. But you have to admit, it certainly wasn't the Americans that embraced the music or the records, but rather this hallowed island across the pond. Having then given Northern Soul to the world, think the question was "keep the rarities in England so we can continue to hear them!"

Think this is the key point being made.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Tai-Pan

[boba]

I think the point being made Bob was that the "Northern Scene" was started in England, and its that same scene that took all these records from their penny worthliness and turned them into valuable collectables they are today. I don't think it was meant arrogantly at all. But you have to admit, it certainly wasn't the Americans that embraced the music or the records, but rather this hallowed island across the pond. Having then given Northern Soul to the world, think the question was "keep the rarities in England so we can continue to hear them!"

Think this is the key point being made.

it's a silly point, if you guys somehow imbued the records with value and somehow deserved to take them across the seas, that you deserve to now keep the records, the same point can be turned around in on itself. If the germans, belgians, etc., now value the records more than you do and will pay more, the records will end up over there, right? Your own argument works against you, right? I'm not part of any northern scene but I also hear the same argument (on here) about how younger people outside the UK in places like Spain, Germany, etc. have a bigger scene and care more about the music now, shouldn't they get to have the music too since they care more? The whole reason they're paying more for the records and they're leaving your country is because there are collectors and a scene in other places where they care more about the music now, right? The people in your country that cared about the music are getting older and care less, right?

I admit by the way that if people like John Anderson weren't shipping a lot of records from warehouses overseas a lot would have been destroyed, but shouldn't you have some basic respect for where the records came from in the first place, the original post definitely came across as pretty arrogant, it's not like you're talking about beatles records on parlophone where the records were produced by your own culture and you wanted to hold onto that somehow.

[Sean Hampsey]

Relax guys, there's millions of Soul records here (in the UK) plundered from the USA that won't be going anywhere fast.

Bob's right, of course - real Soul Music is the music of Black America.

English cultural music tends to begin and end with a 'Hey Nonny No!'

And that stuff I'd be happy to see get shipped abroad.

Sean

[boba]

Relax guys, there's millions of Soul records here (in the UK) plundered from the USA that won't be going anywhere fast.

Bob's right, of course - real Soul Music is the music of Black America.

English cultural music tends to begin and end with a 'Hey Nonny No!'

And that stuff I'd be happy to see get shipped abroad.

Sean

have you heard that terrible (but rare) version of the companions' "be yourself" by honey and the bees on academy where they're singing in a fake british accent, clearly due to beatlemania? it was on ebay like a month ago, went pretty cheap for the rarity actually.

[Sean Hampsey]

have you heard that terrible (but rare) version of the companions' "be yourself" by honey and the bees on academy where they're singing in a fake british accent, clearly due to beatlemania? it was on ebay like a month ago, went pretty cheap for the rarity actually.

No - Never saw that Bob.

Love the Companions - but can't imagine the 'Fake Brit' version is anything to write home about.

Even the authentic stuff is pretty bloody awful!

Sean

[boba]

No - Never saw that Bob.

Love the Companions - but can't imagine the 'Fake Brit' version is anything to write home about.

Even the authentic stuff is pretty bloody awful!

Sean

i love honey and the bees (their josie material makes them one of the most underrated girl groups of the 70s) but that cut is awful. i don't own the 45 but have it on one of dave brown's "philly girls" CDs.

[Dave Rimmer]

younger people outside the UK in places like Spain, Germany, etc. have a bigger scene

Completely untrue, there are enthusiastic scenes in France, Spain, Switzerland, Italy, Japan, Germany especially, Australia, even the US, (and I've probably missed somewhere) but they are not a bigger scene than the UK. I don't care where you read it, you are wrong (And I've been DJing in Europe for over ten years now, so certainly have a better understanding than you of how big their scenes are.)

The people in your country that cared about the music are getting older and care less, right?

Yeah, right ! That's why probably 90% of the people on this site are from the UK. What an arrogant attitude you have for assuming you know how much people in the UK, as a whole, care about the music. I was born here and have lived here all my life, and I wouldn't make such a ridiculous statement !And what does age have to do with it ? I'm 50 now, and know more, listen more, understand more, research more, than I ever did when I was 20, and almost everyone I know on the scene is the same.

I admit by the way that if people like John Anderson weren't shipping a lot of records from warehouses overseas a lot would have been destroyed,

Because people in your country didn't want them.

but shouldn't you have some basic respect for where the records came from in the first place,

And that's the only part of your post I agreed with. It's not 'our' music, as Sean said, it's the music of Black America, and they are not 'our' records, they are (Obviously excluding UK releases) American records.

Sadly, rare records have become very much like any other commodity that commands a price, they go to the highest bidder, and the internet has ensured that worldwide sales are a reality, but there are probably as many rare Soul records in Japan as there are in the UK anyway, just they are not all 'Northern Soul'.

[Guest]

Petrol prices concern me more,i wouldnt mind some of there cheap petrol

[Davenpete]

it's a silly point, if you guys somehow imbued the records with value and somehow deserved to take them across the seas, that you deserve to now keep the records, the same point can be turned around in on itself. If the germans, belgians, etc., now value the records more than you do and will pay more, the records will end up over there, right? Your own argument works against you, right? I'm not part of any northern scene but I also hear the same argument (on here) about how younger people outside the UK in places like Spain, Germany, etc. have a bigger scene and care more about the music now, shouldn't they get to have the music too since they care more? The whole reason they're paying more for the records and they're leaving your country is because there are collectors and a scene in other places where they care more about the music now, right? The people in your country that cared about the music are getting older and care less, right?

I admit by the way that if people like John Anderson weren't shipping a lot of records from warehouses overseas a lot would have been destroyed, but shouldn't you have some basic respect for where the records came from in the first place, the original post definitely came across as pretty arrogant, it's not like you're talking about beatles records on parlophone where the records were produced by your own culture and you wanted to hold onto that somehow.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Absolute crap - every word.

HOW DARE YOU talk about caring/passion for the music - guys on the UK scene have worshipped this music their entire adult lives - time on the scene must average 30++ years (even I as a relative youngster have been going 25 years - with 10 of that weekly - and that means two allnighters EVERY weekend - I missed 22 weekends in 10 years, including christmases etc when nothing was on - when you can talk about that sort of level of demonstrable love for this music THEN you can question OUR love for the music).

As for 'shouldn't you have some basic respect for where the records came from in the first place' if you're black fair enough - but it was white America that ignored all this fabulous talent for purely racist reasons - occasionally buying pathetic sanitized white cover versions by the likes of Pat Boone instead - 'some basic respect'? Bollocks! We should have some deep sense of utter disgust with white America for this and every other offensive racist act perpetrated by your country in the 50s and 60s... And YOU should be utterly ashamed of America for failing to recognise this talent until WE did.

You may now have a scene but (despite being where the records come from) has it EVER discovered a completely new Northern Soul record that has gone on to be popular anywhere else in the world? NO.

I would say that in a market driven economy we don't have much choice about where the records go - but you're only getting our leftovers... In the 80s I knew a few of the California lads - they used to come to the UK to buy Northern coz we had it all.

Dave

Edited September 1, 2009 by DaveNPete

[Soulie78]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Absolute crap - every word.

HOW DARE YOU talk about caring/passion for the music - guys on the UK scene have worshipped this music their entire adult lives - time on the scene must average 30++ years (even I as a relative youngster have been going 25 years - with 10 of that weekly - and that means two allnighters EVERY weekend - I missed 22 weekends in 10 years, including christmases etc when nothing was on - when you can talk about that sort of level of demonstrable love for this music THEN you can question OUR love for the music).

As for 'shouldn't you have some basic respect for where the records came from in the first place' if you're black fair enough - but it was white America that ignored all this fabulous talent for purely racist reasons - occasionally buying pathetic sanitized white cover versions by the likes of Pat Boone instead - 'some basic respect'? Bollocks! We should have some deep sense of utter disgust with white America for this and every other offensive racist act perpetrated by your country in the 50s and 60s... And YOU should be utterly ashamed of America for failing to recognise this talent until WE did.

You may now have a scene but (despite being where the records come from) has it EVER discovered a completely new Northern Soul record that has gone on to be popular anywhere else in the world? NO.

I would say that in a market driven economy we don't have much choice about where the records go - but you're only getting our leftovers... In the 80s I knew a few of the California lads - they used to come to the UK to buy Northern coz we had it all.

Dave

Dave both of you (although Mr. Rimmer)

I'm living and born in Germany and I can assure you that everybody, that collects or djs northern soul records, knows how this fabulous music came to them. Via Britain!

But I think this topic is absolutly rubbish. Who's is the owner of a cultural property? And do thiss persons have a kind of an unquestionable right to it? Isn't it nearly the same, to say in a nationalistic way that the others, out side your own country, should not be allowed to buy "your countries own" records, than claiming that the racist whites in the USA did not allow the black music to get into their culture? Isn't it just two kinds of borders you are building up? I tell you what as a cultural historian/ethnologist, it's nearly always the same with a group and the others, who are not part of it. It's always us and the others: white and black america - britain and the rest of the world. That's why nationalism and racism are not too far away from another. I don't want to say you are a nationalist, but some of your arbuments can be interpretered that way.

Cheers

Martin

[Davenpete]

Dave both of you (although Mr. Rimmer)

I'm living and born in Germany and I can assure you that everybody, that collects or djs northern soul records, knows how this fabulous music came to them. Via Britain!

But I think this topic is absolutly rubbish. Who's is the owner of a cultural property? And do thiss persons have a kind of an unquestionable right to it? Isn't it nearly the same, to say in a nationalistic way that the others, out side your own country, should not be allowed to buy "your countries own" records, than claiming that the racist whites in the USA did not allow the black music to get into their culture? Isn't it just two kinds of borders you are building up? I tell you what as a cultural historian/ethnologist, it's nearly always the same with a group and the others, who are not part of it. It's always us and the others: white and black america - britain and the rest of the world. That's why nationalism and racism are not too far away from another. I don't want to say you are a nationalist, but some of your arbuments can be interpretered that way.

Cheers

Martin

I agree with you - I didn't say anywhere that other countries shouldn't have this music - I believe in spreading the word and am always chuffed to meet you foreign johnnies at allnighters.

Dx

[Guest]

Dave both of you (although Mr. Rimmer)

I'm living and born in Germany and I can assure you that everybody, that collects or djs northern soul records, knows how this fabulous music came to them. Via Britain!

But I think this topic is absolutly rubbish. Who's is the owner of a cultural property? And do thiss persons have a kind of an unquestionable right to it? Isn't it nearly the same, to say in a nationalistic way that the others, out side your own country, should not be allowed to buy "your countries own" records, than claiming that the racist whites in the USA did not allow the black music to get into their culture? Isn't it just two kinds of borders you are building up? I tell you what as a cultural historian/ethnologist, it's nearly always the same with a group and the others, who are not part of it. It's always us and the others: white and black america - britain and the rest of the world. That's why nationalism and racism are not too far away from another. I don't want to say you are a nationalist, but some of your arbuments can be interpretered that way.

Cheers

Martin

Just what i wanted to say,just didnt know how.Ta

[Tai-pan]

Dave both of you (although Mr. Rimmer)

I'm living and born in Germany and I can assure you that everybody, that collects or djs northern soul records, knows how this fabulous music came to them. Via Britain!

But I think this topic is absolutly rubbish. Who's is the owner of a cultural property? And do thiss persons have a kind of an unquestionable right to it? Isn't it nearly the same, to say in a nationalistic way that the others, out side your own country, should not be allowed to buy "your countries own" records, than claiming that the racist whites in the USA did not allow the black music to get into their culture? Isn't it just two kinds of borders you are building up? I tell you what as a cultural historian/ethnologist, it's nearly always the same with a group and the others, who are not part of it. It's always us and the others: white and black america - britain and the rest of the world. That's why nationalism and racism are not too far away from another. I don't want to say you are a nationalist, but some of your arbuments can be interpretered that way.

Cheers

Martin

With respect Martin, so are yours. The initial point made in this thread was simple and honest. You've sited above some "out of context" comments from someone defending a suggestion questioning their caring about the music. But no where do you site any of the comments from others that provoked this response in the first place!. Maybe the whole thing is not so much about nationalism, but more about jealousy don't you think.

[Benji]

Its always been my concern that due to auctions/internet,the rarerities in this country are slowy being filtered out of this country.

The northern scene started in our country so shouldnt dealers/sellers ensure these records remain here.

i know its stupid,but i can see a tlme when one of our top djs/collectors will have to go to begium,germany etc yo bid for a record.

will we ever get these records back.

As you all know the Northern Soul scene not just started in England, it started in the North and Midlands so make sure your record dealers don't sell any of your precious rarities to any southern poofs or even worse some welsh sheepshaggers or scottish *please fill in your own favourite scotsman insult*

[jocko]

FFS get the St Georges cross out and burn a few of these honky Americans on it, sacrifice them in the name of the UK England who saved the ass of those Black Boys in America and brought that music home!!

Sorry Dave no 2 (i.e. not Mr, Rimmer) what a pile of pathetic trash you have written, xenophobia with a liberal touch on it, why not generalise a little more and say all Americans are stupid.

I would suggest 95%, and yes it is a guess, of the Northern scene today, and large chunks of the past don't give a flying f**k about the history of the artists, the music, the culture or any of the politics that make up the world that created Soul music, they like the Northern Soul scene and records, period. A very different proposition. That is evidenced daily on here. I would suggest there is a similar proportion of people on the Northern scene as there is in real life, which is far greater in this country than people will admit or see, are racists, so don't make out our "scene" is completely whiter than white, pardon the pun. Making such a sweeping statement about white America just shows how little you have actually thought about that statement.

Dave No 1 (i.e. that is Mr Rimmer) I am completely amazed at your statement. Is there anyone else on this site, and possibly out of thius site, that is doing more to record and celebrate and most importantly document Black American artists than Boba, oh and actually give the artists something back? FFS I am shocked at your response given your efforts in past to do exactly that. Can you genuinely say all of this scene cares about the artists than the records?

I totally agree with Bob the first statement was a ridiculous statement, you say yourself until recently the records have been in Japan, so exactly what is the relevance of the opening statement? Or is the problem Bob has insulted the scene and must be put to right, FFS there is a lot to insult when you think about it, particularly if you want to talk about its relevance to a wider Black American music world. As for saving the records, lets not get all high and mighty here, for most of us thats all it was, getting a piece of plastic, it certainly did not return anything to the artists that made it.

I agree his comments are misguided about Europe but again its easy to see why based on here, maybe time to look outside the world that is Northern Soul and see us for how the world would see us.....

Edited September 1, 2009 by jocko

[ALIVE'N'KICKIN]

If you guys want to send your records back to their homeland, ill give you my address here in chicago!

[Guest]

If you guys want to send your records back to their homeland, ill give you my address here in chicago!

Send me some petrol(gas) i'll send you some tunes.

[ALIVE'N'KICKIN]

Send me some petrol(gas) i'll send you some tunes.

gas is $2.65 a gallon over here, but shipping would be brutal, but i am sure we can work something out

Edited September 1, 2009 by ALIVE'N'KICKIN

[Guest]

gas is $2.65 a gallon over here, but shipping would brutal, but i am sure we can work something out

Yeh post would nuts $2.65 in English money whats that,just gone over a fiver (£5)here

Edited September 1, 2009 by ken

[Ernie Andrews]

it's a silly point, if you guys somehow imbued the records with value and somehow deserved to take them across the seas, that you deserve to now keep the records, the same point can be turned around in on itself. If the germans, belgians, etc., now value the records more than you do and will pay more, the records will end up over there, right? Your own argument works against you, right? I'm not part of any northern scene but I also hear the same argument (on here) about how younger people outside the UK in places like Spain, Germany, etc. have a bigger scene and care more about the music now, shouldn't they get to have the music too since they care more? The whole reason they're paying more for the records and they're leaving your country is because there are collectors and a scene in other places where they care more about the music now, right? The people in your country that cared about the music are getting older and care less, right?

I admit by the way that if people like John Anderson weren't shipping a lot of records from warehouses overseas a lot would have been destroyed, but shouldn't you have some basic respect for where the records came from in the first place, the original post definitely came across as pretty arrogant, it's not like you're talking about beatles records on parlophone where the records were produced by your own culture and you wanted to hold onto that somehow.

Bob - How can you make a comparison between The Beatles & the Northern soul scene- Thats even more ludicrous and shows your lack of Knowledge o 60sf British Culture. The Beatles were reveered predominantly in the Uk and became a huge success abroad- Irrespective of the Hamburg concerts.So the point is they were loved here(Records/shows etc) and abroad whereas the Northern soul scene was based on records loved here but not in the country of origin in other words you (& I am talking USA) abandoned them. Now that could be said to be arrogant!

Their is respect from where they came from thats why our scene started. As you have admitted your not part of any Northern scene Bob and that suggests then that you havnt a clue about the emotions and feelings about these records that bring people who had never met together in a common admiration.

So I would suggest you are arrogant because you dont have a scoobies about what Northern soulscene is interms of "The feeling"

You may be very knowledgeable about rare soul records but it appears you are dabling in something you have limited knowledge about- However your point about other countries buying the records is valid!

LOL Steve

[ALIVE'N'KICKIN]

Yeh post would nuts $2.65 in English money whats that,just gone over a fiver (£5)here

jeez, 5 quid a gallon there? i wonder why the big price? 2.65 U.S. dollar would be about 1.50 gbp, thats insane! Maybe i should try to trade petrol for records

[Rich Buckley]

There has been a lot of tosh written in this thread! Simple answer to the original post is that nobody, no country, no scene has any inalienable right to the physical records or the music in general. Thankfully it's a free world (for the most part!). As a side hand grenade I would add that the scene in most of the European countries is on the whole of a younger age. No doubt, when their scenes are ageing the plastic will flow elsewhere although the vast bulk is still in this country in my opinion and probably always will be. So you see, we're one big happy recycling northern soul scene

Rich

[Soulie78]

With respect Martin, so are yours. The initial point made in this thread was simple and honest. You've sited above some "out of context" comments from someone defending a suggestion questioning their caring about the music. But no where do you site any of the comments from others that provoked this response in the first place!. Maybe the whole thing is not so much about nationalism, but more about jealousy don't you think.

What do you mean with "so are yours", that my statements can be interpretered as nationalistic?

I don't think so. But off course Bob's arguments were over the top, too. The question with the cultural property could although be asked to him. As I stated, I think, the whole topic is rubbish, as it builds borders between people and that's why some arguments are kind of danger. The start of the topic looks like an harmless question, but it although has an nationalistic argument with in it, at least it sounds for me that way. And thats's why, only that kind of answers were made.

I'm a born german, although I feel just like a member of mankind, and we get teached very well what catastrophy we brought over Europe and the World at the beginning of the 20th century. Therefore I think, we should be very careful how we argument and not build borders between people with our argumentation.

This topic reminds me of an argument/discussion going on in my temporally home town Bamberg. Bamberg was it's own country governt by archbishops untill 1806, than it became part of Bavaria and it is till today. So do orther franconian towns and regions, like Nuremberg, Würzburg and so on. As the new powerholder, the Bavarians, took away some stuff of the so called "Treasure of the Cathedral", that was brought to Bamberg by it's founder St. Henry in the 11th century and other powerful man in the middel ages, and they brought it to Munich. Now some conservatives in town are still crying about it, that it should be brought back and that we should take care of it and that we could get much more tourists, if they could see the Treasure here. Although we already have masses of tourists, as Bamberg is a cultural heritage of the Unesco.

But anyway, okay let's imagine, we get this "Treasure" back to Bamberg and what happens next? All the towns and institutions, where this stuff came from hundreds of years ago, could ask for the same. So, should we split it all over Europe than? Bring some of the stuff back to Rome, Paris, other parts of Germany and some monestries in the UK and so on.

Martin

Edited September 1, 2009 by soulie78

[ALIVE'N'KICKIN]

i think people make these threads just to see how upset they can make people.....

[Guest gordon russell]

guess what, "your music" was taken "abroad" already from its point of origin where people came and paid pennies for records that were shipped overseas and sold for hundreds of pounds, pretty arrogant attitude for you to have.

your havin a laugh,back in the seventies these tunes were bought in the states by dealers for pennies by the lorry load.....the americans were glad to get rid of em.People l know who went to the states then, told me the americans couldn't understand why we brits wanted em.Truth is we actually liked the music that america thought was shite.Now that there are a lot of big money tunes, all of a sudden we've stolen their heritage it's our music and all that crap..........AMERICA DIDN'T WANT IT THEN but nows theres money in it they do now. Well tough!!!

[Guest gordon russell]

just another point,someone said something about white america not wanting this music and maybe white record label owners ripping off the black artists........this may be so,but a lot of black people in the music industry then ripped plenty of their (black brothers off) to make a quick buck. Judging by just how many tunes on vinyl are out there THEY (BLACK AMERICANS) didn't fecking like the music either. I,ve heard of many a case where the artist didn't even know his record had been released..........IT'S OUR MUSIC AND WE'RE GONNA KEEP IT,mind you if you want all the copies of NIGHT OWL,THE SHAKERS,R.DEAN TAYLOR,APRIL STEVENS,FATHERS ANGELS,BARBERA MILLS,JOE JAMA and many more..........sure it can be arranged lol

[ALIVE'N'KICKIN]

just another point,someone said something about white america not wanting this music and maybe white record label owners ripping off the black artists........this may be so,but a lot of black people in the music industry then ripped plenty of their (black brothers off) to make a quick buck. Judging by just how many tunes on vinyl are out there THEY (BLACK AMERICANS) didn't fecking like the music either. I,ve heard of many a case where the artist didn't even know his record had been released..........IT'S OUR MUSIC AND WE'RE GONNA KEEP IT,mind you if you want all the copies of NIGHT OWL,THE SHAKERS,R.DEAN TAYLOR,APRIL STEVENS,FATHERS ANGELS,BARBERA MILLS,JOE JAMA and many more..........sure it can be arranged lol

ill take a copy of night owl if your giving it away, and why not whatever else you wanna toss in there!

[Guest gordon russell]

ill take a copy of night owl if your giving it away, and why not whatever else you wanna toss in there!

swap ya for the soul blenders or lee garrett

[ALIVE'N'KICKIN]

dont have either kind sir. i thought they were freebies

Edited September 1, 2009 by ALIVE'N'KICKIN

[Godzilla]

The northern scene started in our country so shouldnt dealers/sellers ensure these records remain here.

Regardless of the other points I'd like to know how you'd achieve this? Are you seriously suggesting that anyone who auctions or a sells a record set sale should make the buyers country of origin the highest priority? In the case of an auction, more so that whoever is willing to pay the highest price?

And what about Brits who have moved to other countries - are they barred from buying records?

Actually I can't believe I'm replying to this - it's the most nonsensical proposition I've seen in ages. In fact it's clearly a wind up. Got us all going for a bit there Garysoul. Well done mate

[Tai-pan]

There has been a lot of tosh written in this thread! Simple answer to the original post is that nobody, no country, no scene has any inalienable right to the physical records or the music in general. Thankfully it's a free world (for the most part!). As a side hand grenade I would add that the scene in most of the European countries is on the whole of a younger age. No doubt, when their scenes are ageing the plastic will flow elsewhere although the vast bulk is still in this country in my opinion and probably always will be. So you see, we're one big happy recycling northern soul scene

Rich

Great post Rich.

[Johnmcc]

If this carries on then Elgin will have to send his marbles back to Greece and Arsenal won't have a team next week.

[Dave Rimmer]

Dave No 1 (i.e. that is Mr Rimmer) I am completely amazed at your statement. Is there anyone else on this site, and possibly out of thius site, that is doing more to record and celebrate and most importantly document Black American artists than Boba, oh and actually give the artists something back? FFS I am shocked at your response given your efforts in past to do exactly that. Can you genuinely say all of this scene cares about the artists than the records?

You've completely lost me on this one.

"Completely amazed at your statement" But then don't say which statement you are completely amazed at ! So in return, I'm completely amazed at your statement !

"Can you genuinely say all of this scene cares about the artists than the records" This doesn't make sense, so I'm assuming you meant this to say all of this scene cares more about the artists than the records, and the answer to that is no, I can't ! And I didn't say that in any way shape or form. In fact artists weren't even mentioned in my post, just records.

I genuinely am puzzled as to what you are referring to ? In fact I've just gone back and read my post again, and at no point did I question Boba's knowledge of Black American music, or any of the work he does through his radio show and the interviews he does. I questioned his knowledge of the Northern Soul scene, in the UK and in the rest of Europe, whcih is something you also did !!

Edited September 1, 2009 by Dave Rimmer

[Davenpete]

FFS get the St Georges cross out and burn a few of these honky Americans on it, sacrifice them in the name of the UK England who saved the ass of those Black Boys in America and brought that music home!!

Sorry Dave no 2 (i.e. not Mr, Rimmer) what a pile of pathetic trash you have written, xenophobia with a liberal touch on it, why not generalise a little more and say all Americans are stupid.

I would suggest 95%, and yes it is a guess, of the Northern scene today, and large chunks of the past don't give a flying f**k about the history of the artists, the music, the culture or any of the politics that make up the world that created Soul music, they like the Northern Soul scene and records, period. A very different proposition. That is evidenced daily on here. I would suggest there is a similar proportion of people on the Northern scene as there is in real life, which is far greater in this country than people will admit or see, are racists, so don't make out our "scene" is completely whiter than white, pardon the pun. Making such a sweeping statement about white America just shows how little you have actually thought about that statement.

Dave No 1 (i.e. that is Mr Rimmer) I am completely amazed at your statement. Is there anyone else on this site, and possibly out of thius site, that is doing more to record and celebrate and most importantly document Black American artists than Boba, oh and actually give the artists something back? FFS I am shocked at your response given your efforts in past to do exactly that. Can you genuinely say all of this scene cares about the artists than the records?

I totally agree with Bob the first statement was a ridiculous statement, you say yourself until recently the records have been in Japan, so exactly what is the relevance of the opening statement? Or is the problem Bob has insulted the scene and must be put to right, FFS there is a lot to insult when you think about it, particularly if you want to talk about its relevance to a wider Black American music world. As for saving the records, lets not get all high and mighty here, for most of us thats all it was, getting a piece of plastic, it certainly did not return anything to the artists that made it.

I agree his comments are misguided about Europe but again its easy to see why based on here, maybe time to look outside the world that is Northern Soul and see us for how the world would see us.....

I had originally included the point that many Motown albums during the 60s had to be released with new cover with white kids on the front in the vain hope they'd sell in the southern states, but had removed it as I felt it was too involved - there are numerous examples that can be made of this type in regards to soul/black music released in the 60s and 70s and the way it was ignored by the mass media and the wider white record buying public in the states who preferred white pop mush.

As for 'don't give a flying f**k about the history of the artists, the music, the culture or any of the politics that make up the world that created Soul music' THEY DAMN WELL SHOULD - it's easy to group the SLIGHTLY interested 'Babylove' likers that go to the innumerable lightweight soul events in with the serious lovers of the music and then extrapolate that 'most' of the scene don't care about the associated knowledge - but it's like saying that everyone who bought a Soul II Soul record is part of the modern scene and therefore the modern scene is built on chart success - patent crap.

As for racism - it is TOTALLY incompatible with a genuine feel for the music - the one thing a deep love of soul should teach us is that, black/white/purple, inside we are all the same.

Dave

Edited September 1, 2009 by DaveNPete

[jocko]

Yeah, right ! That's why probably 90% of the people on this site are from the UK. What an arrogant attitude you have for assuming you know how much people in the UK, as a whole, care about the music. I was born here and have lived here all my life, and I wouldn't make such a ridiculous statement !And what does age have to do with it ? I'm 50 now, and know more, listen more, understand more, research more, than I ever did when I was 20, and almost everyone I know on the scene is the same.

I was referring to statement above which I would suggest certainly implies you are talking about more than just the records and your comment about everyone on the scene.

"Completely amazed at your statement" But then don't say which statement you are completely amazed at ! So in return, I'm completely amazed at your statement !

"Can you genuinely say all of this scene cares about the artists than the records" This doesn't make sense, so I'm assuming you meant this to say all of this scene cares more about the artists than the records, and the answer to that is no, I can't ! And I didn't say that in any way shape or form. In fact artists weren't even mentioned in my post, just records.

I genuinely am puzzled as to what you are referring to ? In fact I've just gone back and read my post again, and at no point did I question Boba's knowledge of Black American music, or any of the work he does through his radio show and the interviews he does. I questioned his knowledge of the Northern Soul scene, in the UK and in the rest of Europe, whcih is something you also did !!

Yes I did miss out the word more in my sentence about caring, so apologies about lack of clarity on this and my reference, it was before my morning coffee and I was still coughing and spluttering over this thread.

I am sorry but I totally read into this you are talking about more than the records, and as I know you have spent massive time researching artists etc, I assumed, I think understandably, you were meaning this in first statement. I just disagree so strongly on that, as I say I think the opposite is evidenced daily on here.

I also read into this that you were saying we over here did more research etc than our American compadres, which is why I made my comment about Bob's researchbut that was an assumption based on second half of the statement and apologies if I did misread this.

I just feel the vehemence addressed towards Bob, which when you actually read is him just saying you could read it his way, not that it was, was totally misdirected and incomprehensible. As I say I think the first post (who has now retired and looks to be chuckling from afar at the responses) is the daftest post yet but no-one seems to have taken great offense to this.

I make no secret of the fact I think more and more members on this board post little englander type posts, which I think have no place on a multi-national community, and are generally factually wrong to boot, so was surprised to see that coming over from you Dave, as I didnt expect it. However I will admit I possible was carrying that over from the initial post so may have been harsh in my judgment.

Edited September 1, 2009 by jocko

[funkyfeet]

As you all know the Northern Soul scene not just started in England, it started in the North and Midlands so make sure your record dealers don't sell any of your precious rarities to any southern poofs or even worse some welsh sheepshaggers or scottish *please fill in your own favourite scotsman insult*

North Wales was in from the start, you don't know much about the early days mate, lots of your rarities have come from here in the first place and not the other way around. Edited September 1, 2009 by funkyfeet

[Benji]

North Wales was in from the start, you don't know much about the early days mate, lots of your rarities have come from here in the first place and not the other way around.

And you don't get what my post was about mate. And my rarities came from the States or Germany, by the way...

[Dave Rimmer]

I was referring to statement above which I would suggest certainly implies you are talking about more than just the records and your comment about everyone on the scene.

I didn't make a comment about "everyone on the scene". I said "almost everyone I know on the scene", two totally different things.

Yes I did miss out the word more in my sentence about caring, so apologies about lack of clarity on this and my reference, it was before my morning coffee and I was still coughing and spluttering over this thread.

I am sorry but I totally read into this you are talking about more than the records, and as I know you have spent massive time researching artists etc, I assumed, I think understandably, you were meaning this in first statement. I just disagree so strongly on that, as I say I think the opposite is evidenced daily on here.

I didn't mention artists at all. The first post was about records, Boba's post was about records, and my response was about records. If I had meant to discuss artists I'd have mentioned artists.

I also read into this that you were saying we over here did more research etc than our American compadres, which is why I made my comment about Bob's researchbut that was an assumption based on second half of the statement and apologies if I did misread this.

I didn't say this either, what I said was I, and almost everyone I know (And this is people I actually know, not just acquaintances) know more, listen more, understand more, research more, etc, than we did when we were 20 years old. At no point did I compare this to the level of knowledge anywhere else in the world.

I just feel the vehemence addressed towards Bob, which when you actually read is him just saying you could read it his way, not that it was, was totally misdirected and incomprehensible. As I say I think the first post (who has now retired and looks to be chuckling from afar at the responses) is the daftest post yet but no-one seems to have taken great offense to this.

I make no secret of the fact I think more and more members on this board post "little englander" type posts, which I think have no place on a multi-national community, and are generally factually wrong to boot, so was surprised to see that coming over from you Dave, as I didn't expect it. However I will admit I possible was carrying that over from the initial post so may have been harsh in my judgment.

As someone who has DJ'ed in mainland Europe (Before Kenny tells me that we are part of Europe ) for over ten years, and loved every minute of it, and I'll be DJing in France and Germany again before the end of the year, I'm hardly going to be putting the 'Little Englander' attitude across, at least not until we talk about football . And again, the only thing that could be read into what I actually said was that I wouldn't presume to make assumptions about the whole of the UK Northern Soul scene, despite having lived here all my life, the implication in that being that Boba shouldn't make those assumptions either (Especially as he is basing his assumptions on an incorrect premise that the scene in Europe is bigger than the scene in the UK).

I'd be grateful if you could point to the part of my post that was "factually wrong" though.

However I will admit I possible was carrying that over from the initial post so may have been harsh in my judgment.

I think so, but have no wish to continue arguing semantics with you, so I'll agree with you that the first post was one of the daftest yet. Fancy a beer at the 100 Club on Saturday ? I'll let you buy

[Benji]

Fancy a beer at the 100 Club on Saturday ? I'll let you buy

I'll buy both of you a pint if you can explain what you're exactly on about...

[Guest smigger]

I'll buy both of you a pint if you can explain what you're exactly on about...

And I'll supply the J¤germeister if the lot of you will shut up. My head's about to explode.

[Modernsoulsucks]

I think Im with Mr. Rimmer.

Without the scene here most of this music would have been forgotten. It was largely ignored by the record-buying public in the USA at the time although I have seen enough copies of beat-up rarities with a name scrawled across the label to realise there was at least a smallish market for some of it. I've also met a few US collectors over there pre-internet days to say that it was appreciated albeit to nothing like the extent that it was in the UK.

I don't know how Black and White has entered the debate. Im sure the artists etc just made records that they'd hope would sell especially when you consider that at the time Motown and Atlantic were regularly selling enough to make the US pop charts. I somehow doubt these 45s were aimed at a narrow target audience. When you think about it, it's not really that these records weren't appreciated for any long period. Whatever date can be attributed to the beginnings of the scene the actual music and sound was picked up on over here shortly after release and it was only the obscurity of most titles that meant we had to wait years before hearing them. It's not like we originally thought they were museum pieces with the emphasis on the value.

Unlike Dave I've not attended do's abroad, although I did go to Sheffield once, but from my reading unless there is a large input from ex-pats the music policy is not strictly Northern, and perhaps nothing like what we knew in the first half of the 70's, but there can be no objection to others borrowing aspects of the music or trappings. After all we've done the same especially in the later years with slower tempo 45s being picked up from the Jamaican US and French/Belgian popcorn scenes and various records from the Beach scene.

The fact that records are supposedly now going abroad rather than here doesn't affect us at all. It's always happened; particularly to Japan. Their dealers were in the USA at the same time as us so there's hardly been a time when the UK had first "dibs" on this music. And as someone said it's not like you see playlists from abroad that contain masses of 45s that we've somehow failed to get hold of over here.

I have to admit the cynic in me does tend to feel sometimes that value has played a massive part in this new found interest in the USA but I guess Im going off Ebay sellers rather than collectors like Boba. Even so Boba's first statements contain the fallacy that Anderson was buying them for pennies and selling for hundreds when we all know that although some were relatively expensive the £100 45 didn't arrive until pretty late on in the 70's. It's not like we went to the USA with the intent to plunder their riches. Just to find the next "Sweet Things".

So forget 45s as a commodity or a heritage we have to protect and maybe just a wry smile that what we started has a good night out has evolved into a multi-faceted phenomena.

ROD

Edited September 1, 2009 by modernsoulsucks

[Guest Paul]

I appreciate all sides of this debate but let's not get carried away here. Bob was just reacting to a post which seemed a bit over the top.

I've often said on here, we don't own the music. It was made by other people in another country while most of us were still at school. Therefore, we adopted something that already existed. Our "northern soul" culture is largely based on someone else's culture.

In the USA, until recent years, 45s were fast-moving consumable items (that applies to all 45s, not just soul 45s) and because of the overcrowded market and the sale-or-return situation in the US, they ended up with vast amounts of overstocks, deletions and unwanted records. We plundered their surplus for flips and flops, mostly at junk prices.

Americans have as much right to the music (and the actual 45s) as anyone else.

Lots of soul records flopped, for various reasons, but many were regional and national hits in the USA at a time when they weren't even released here. So we can't preach to Americans about how we appreciate soul music more than they do. It just isn't true.

The only people who can claim any degree of "ownership" are the people who created it and funded it. And they created it so it could be enjoyed by all people: black and white, young and old, rich and poor, in all corners of the world.

Sadly, because many 45s are now so expensive, it's ironic that many of those who created the music are unable to afford it.

Let's just be thankful that they made the music so we could get so much pleasure from it.

Best wishes,

Paul

P.S. I want to emphasise that of course we should be proud of our passion and loyalty for the music. We have dug so deep into the history of the music and have helped to preserve it, but that still doesn't make it ours.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Paul

[Guest SteveJohnston]

I'll buy both of you a pint if you can explain what you're exactly on about...

There is no way anyone could explain this lot over "a" pint not even Mr Rimmer

[jocko]

I had originally included the point that many Motown albums during the 60s had to be released with new cover with white kids on the front in the vain hope they'd sell in the southern states, but had removed it as I felt it was too involved - there are numerous examples that can be made of this type in regards to soul/back music released in the 60s and 70s.

I do not think that anyone in their right mind would say there wasn't, or indeed that there still is, racism in American society and certainly in the music business, I think however if the worst crime they did was change some album covers the world would have been a far better place in these last 100 and more years. In fact was the UK not equally guilty of doing this with album covers for certain Motown records, should we not be equally disgusted at ourselves then?

My point was to make the sweeping generalisation that ALL white Americans are by implication guilty of racism and your statements "white America ignored all this fabulous talent for purely racist reasons" and "deep sense of utter disgust with white America for this and every other offensive racist act perpetrated by your country in the 50s and 60s" are at best simplistic and are almost racist in there own right. Not to mention it seems to ignore the far more obvious racist times of pre-50s, and slavery etc. I particularly suggest you find out a little more about Bob A before you throw such accusations and then apologise whole heartedly. Judging race relations in this world purely based on the music industry and your love of soul music will lead to some incredibly skewed assumptions in my opinion

Taking your logic further, every single last man of we "English whites" should be ashamed of our colonial past and indeed all Spaniards should be ashamed of introducing chicken pox and horses to South America, based on your comments I think self flagellation is the only possible sentence we need to pass on ourselves.

The original point is about Northern is it not (I personally don't agree with it myself) - as for 'don't give a flying f**k about the history of the artists, the music, the culture or any of the politics that make up the world that created Soul music' THEY DAMN WELL SHOULD - it's easy to group the slightly interested 'Babylove' likers in with the serious lovers of the music and then extrapolate that most of the scene don't care about the associated knowledge - it would be like saying that everyone who bought a Soul II Soul records is part of the modern scene and therefore the modern scene is built on chart success - patent crap.

I envy your idealistic Utopian view but I really think you would struggle to prove anything like it. In all honesty I am not sure why people into Northern should be interested in the wider world than the scene, the fact there are people who are I would suggest is due to a widening of musical tastes away from Northern. Even if I am wrong, there is a huge difference in this world to what people should do and what they actually do. And no I know nothing about "babylove likers" ( I won't even make a puerile joke about Tory MP's in nappys), I think some of the comments on here on a daily basis prove otherwise and would suggest some of the most hardcore Northern people around today have no interest in the wider soul world, that's not a criticism, its just fact. I suspect based on your posts you were a child of the 80's Northern scene, as was I, and some of your views are based on that, I do not think they hold true now at all, and would be interested if you could convince me otherwise. I have never felt how many allnighters people do equates to a love of the music rather than the scene, and in that case I appreciate that certainly does not hold true for everyone but to turn that around you imply people who haven't put that amount of time in at all nighters can't love the music, think about that statement for a minute and then tell me it holds true.

As for racism - it is TOTALLY incompatible with a genuine fell for the music - the one thing a deep love of soul should teach us is that inside we are all the same.

Dave

I think you are preaching to the converted here mate, but I suggest you open your eyes to the Northern scene of today and if you think that the scene(s) is(are) not just as representative as the outside world in bigotries (of all sorts) you are either more trusting than me or more gullible than me, I will let you choose which. I should say I am in danger of generalising here and have always believed that sweeping generalisations are what leads to "isms" of all sorts and is that not where we came in.......

PS On a lighter note whats wrong with Soul-to-Soul, just because they made the charts doesn't diminish they are one of the true greats of the modern soul era (that is the post 80's soul era rather than the Modern scene attached to Northern), although think that's another thread.

[Guest Bearsy]

the Americans created the music

the Northern scene in Britian became of the the music

Everyone has a right to the music

[Guest Paul]

the Americans created the music

the Northern scene in Britian became of the the music

Everyone has a right to the music

That sums it up.

[Sweeney]

Its always been my concern that due to auctions/internet,the rarerities in this country are slowy being filtered out of this country.

The northern scene started in our country so shouldnt dealers/sellers ensure these records remain here.

i know its stupid,but i can see a tlme when one of our top djs/collectors will have to go to begium,germany etc yo bid for a record.

will we ever get these records back.

It's a blinkered view to think that the dwindling numbers of UK Rare Soul collectors are somehow losing out.

I personally think that there's never been a better time to source elusive wants and that's purely down to the power of the internet. Effectively everyone can be a record dealer which leads to interesting and stupidly rare records at knockdown prices if you know where to look. You only have to look at the gems that have been turned up on Ebay to see that it's a very good thing for Rare Soul collectors as we don't have to rely on the same narrow (and I daresy expensive) sources we did say, 20-30 years ago.

Where they come from is immaterial - the fact that they ARE showing up is the good news.

I would also imagine that "our top DJs" as you call them have been sourcing their most interesting new discoveries from international sources outside of the USA for years already.

Edited September 1, 2009 by sweeney

[jocko]

As someone who has DJ'ed in mainland Europe (Before Kenny tells me that we are part of Europe ) for over ten years, and loved every minute of it, and I'll be DJing in France and Germany again before the end of the year, I'm hardly going to be putting the 'Little Englander' attitude across, at least not until we talk about football . And again, the only thing that could be read into what I actually said was that I wouldn't presume to make assumptions about the whole of the UK Northern Soul scene, despite having lived here all my life, the implication in that being that Boba shouldn't make those assumptions either (Especially as he is basing his assumptions on an incorrect premise that the scene in Europe is bigger than the scene in the UK).

I'd be grateful if you could point to the part of my post that was "factually wrong" though.

However I will admit I possible was carrying that over from the initial post so may have been harsh in my judgment.

I think so, but have no wish to continue arguing semantics with you, so I'll agree with you that the first post was one of the daftest yet. Fancy a beer at the 100 Club on Saturday ? I'll let you buy

Bloody hell, you are arguing semantics now.

In reverse order I didn't say you were a typical little englander, in fact quite the opposite, I also didn't say you had said anything factually wrong, I said the little englander posts normally did.

I was going to try and get last word by saying I disagree with your emphasis on records, but have been told that would be petty and that wouldn't stand up in a court of law, the assumption being you know better than I do what you meant asI can't produce documentary evidence, so will apologise and say I obviously misread your intents. So yes beer on me, but not literally before Chalky says anything.

Benji don't worry, I am just getting in practice for what I will sound like at 7am on Sunday morning, just pray I don't try my bad German on you as poor Stefan and Tim have to endure every year at Essence.

PS Benji glad to see you are dispelling even more stereotypes about Germans having no sense of humour, I totally got your irony even if lots of others didn't.

Ein Weií…¸bBier von mir am Samstag.

the Americans created the music

the Northern scene in Britian became of the the music

Everyone has a right to the music

I think this is what I was trying to say, note to self, less words more meaning!!