Was James Brown The Godfather Of Soul?

[Guest]

Never in a million years.... maybe Godfather Of Funk.....But Godfather Of Soul is of course... ......Teddy Prendergrass ...And yours would be??........................?

Edited August 29, 2009 by webbydublin

[Pete Eccles]

Never in a million years.... maybe Godfather Of Funk.....But Godfather Of Soul is......Teddy Prendergrass ...And yours would be??........................?

Teddy is one of my all time faves but surely too late to be Godfather?

Sam Cooke or Jackie Wilson for me for what it's worth,

[Pete Eccles]

Wish I had thought of them before I opened my big mouth,

Well said Pete

Thanks Webby:thumbup:

[Alison H]

Erm !! Its a tough one really. There's too many to choose from.

If my life depended on it, It would be a toss up between Marvin & Luther.

Marvin for the phwoar factor (cos Im shallow) & Luther for the voice. Though Marvin's voice does melt my knickers also !!

There you go ! I'm a greedy girl as well as shallow. I've got two daddys of Soul so there

Al x

[Kris Holmes]

No question it is James Brown, saying otherwise is just sillyness. Teddy Pendergrass? don't make me laugh. Jackie Wilson & Sam Cooke both had one foot in the crossover pop market too often, Sam didn't last long enough to realise the potential & Jackie was too reliant on other people's productions/songs. Great artists, but JB was the total package as far as self contained godfathering of soul goes.

[Mark S]

Get on the good foot James Brown the Godfather of soul course he is .

[Guest]

Never in a million years.... maybe Godfather Of Funk.....But Godfather Of Soul is of course... ......Teddy Prendergrass ...And yours would be??........................?

My moneys on P J Proby

James Brown - wake up people - Polydor LP -

james brown - sexy sexy sexy -

James Brown - Money Wont Change You - same as sexy only 6ts

Wake up Webby !!

Edited August 29, 2009 by ken

[Rob Wigley]

Where does Otis Redding fit in to this ?-somewhere near "The Top" as there is an early King records connection as well, also his commercial success only came after his death....

[Guest]

Never in a million years.... maybe Godfather Of Funk.....But Godfather Of Soul is of course... ......Teddy Prendergrass ...And yours would be??........................?

JB had the title of GOS bestowed on him , through being recognized as one of the most influential figures in . and on Black popular music .

Malc Burton

[Davenpete]

Was he f*ck.

Though some of his Soul productions are stunning - that's equally true of Ike Turner though.

There isn't a single one by any stretch if you're talking earliest quotient of soul in a voice that ain't gospel on record - but how about Paul Robeson or any number of the Blues men and especially women.

On what level does Teddy Pendergrass come into it? He's only a pup (though a cracking singer of course) not being born until 1950 - he was only about 4 when HM & the BN were formed.

Dave

Edited August 29, 2009 by DaveNPete

[Godzilla]

No question it is James Brown, saying otherwise is just sillyness. Teddy Pendergrass? don't make me laugh. Jackie Wilson & Sam Cooke both had one foot in the crossover pop market too often, Sam didn't last long enough to realise the potential & Jackie was too reliant on other people's productions/songs. Great artists, but JB was the total package as far as self contained godfathering of soul goes.

Concise

[Soulsmith]

Whenever I hear James Brown, I release the safety catch of my Browning.

James Brown is funk & that is one half of the axis of evil.

As a true blooded one time wearer of baggy trousers lines but be drawn in the sand whether or not one intends to build a castle.

[Guest Mezhouse]

Where does Otis Redding fit in to this ?-somewhere near "The Top" as there is an early King records connection as well, also his commercial success only came after his death....

Thanks Rob & Karen, you beat me too it! For me Otis Redding is the one!!! NEVER James Brown, don't like any of his apart from 'This is a Man's World'!

[Wally Francis]

This a big play for me at the moment.

James Brown - I Love You For Sentimental Reasons - Polydor -

Cheers

Wally

Edited August 29, 2009 by Wally

[Guest soulmaguk]

Soul Sam.

[Godzilla]

Soul Sam.

The question was 'Godfather' - not 'Grandfather of Soul'.

Or Barnfather for that matter...

[macca]

I think these terms, king, queen, empress, godfather etc are rather pointless.

Of all the artists mentioned, I think JB was the one that did the most for his people. In the aftermath of the MLK assassination, Watts, Chicago, Detroit etc, it was JB's voice that people listened to and held the most sway in the community. In creative terms, the man was unique, an total innovator. If the JB groove and what became Funk isn't one's cup of tea, it hardly matters, the man was a pathfinder. As a performer, the man was also in a class of his own. If we go back further in time, ask yourself these questions: if Bessie Smith was the empress of the blues, wtf were Ma Rainey and Victoria Spivey? Was Robert Johnson really the king of the Delta Blues?

[Guest SoulRenaissance]

Whenever I hear James Brown, I release the safety catch of my Browning.

James Brown is funk & that is one half of the axis of evil.

As a true blooded one time wearer of baggy trousers lines but be drawn in the sand whether or not one intends to build a castle.

I'd class "Papa's got a brand new bag" as funk, but it's also damn soulful. "Cold sweat" likewise. Can't it be funk as well as soul?

Sharon Jones and Lee Fields are two of the most soulful artists around, but a lot of their music is funk.

What's the problem here?

Martyn

[Guest trickbag]

says it all realy, surprised you had to ask

ricky.

[Guest Mezhouse]

says it all realy, surprised you had to ask

ricky.

Lol! Nice one!

Jo xx

[Sean Hampsey]

Well in that case who is the Ace and the Jack in the Pack

We certainly know who the Joker is Webby!

Sean

[Guest MBarrett]

For me Otis Redding every time.

He already picked Carla as his Queen - wise choice - so that's that sorted.

But he's going to need some staff.

His iconic L.P. was "The New Religion" so I'm nominating Jimmy James as Archbishop of Canterbury!!

MB

Edited August 29, 2009 by MBarrett

[funkyfeet]

Never been a fan of Otis, a few okay tunes, James Brown is the one no doubt. Producer, song writer, artist, performer, his songs have covered every aspect of the black music scene and crossed over, whether it's northern, funk, deep, pop, social & political, R&B, R&R. Rap, Hip Hop, etc. Otis was championed by the white rock media and no doubt would have gone down that route if his life hadn't been cut short. JB was also the most prolific of artists releasing 45's at a rate that most artists could only dream about, live show's, that was on top of all his work in the studio with God knows how many other artists, when did this guy sleep. He started in the 50's and was still active right up to his death, names mentioned so far don't come close.

[Guest proudlove]

..That's because no-one has mentioned Paul Anka!

Can I have a pint of what you'r drinking please?

[Suzannek]

I like James Brown's early stuff, but not a lover of his later funky stuff. I prefer the music of James Brown's friend and label mate Little Willie John.

Suz

x

[macca]

I think that bit about Otis being championed by the white media is a bit unfair. Just because the hippies reacted positively (they were tripping their tits off) at Monterrey Pop? Otis was much more than what the white rock media made of him. He would have blown minds in spite of them. Tony Rounce needs to get his gloves on! :-)

[Godzilla]

I like James Brown's early stuff, but not a lover of his later funky stuff...

"Think" was from 1960 and is pretty funky. Too late for you Suz?

[Suzannek]

"Think" was from 1960 and is pretty funky. Too late for you Suz?

Think is one of the ones I like, I don't see that as funky

Suz

x

[Godzilla]

Think is one of the ones I like, I don't see that as funky

Suz

x

I suppose you could argue, although I can hear the funk in it. No arguments about "Out Of Sight" or "Papa's Got A Brand New Bag" though. Undeniably funk records.

I suppose they are definitely 'late' JB then?

[Mark S]

A couple more to ponder ..............Issac Hayes and Curtis Mayfeild

[Guest dundeedavie]

A couple more to ponder ..............Issac Hayes and Curtis Mayfeild

i'd go for curtis mayfield way before i'd even consider putting the words james brown and soul together

[Davetay]

i'd go for curtis mayfield way before i'd even consider putting the words james brown and soul together

We agree on something at last.

[Suzannek]

I suppose you could argue, although I can hear the funk in it. No arguments about "Out Of Sight" or "Papa's Got A Brand New Bag" though. Undeniably funk records.

I suppose they are definitely 'late' JB then?

Well I wouldn't say they were late being 60s records, don't dislike them two records, aint the worst records I've heard, but I prefer his 50s/early 60s stuff. I do like It's a Man's Man's World though from 1966.

Suz

x

[Guest isis]

A couple more to ponder ..............Issac Hayes and Curtis Mayfeild

Must say I'd go for Curtis Mayfield too...closely followed by Willie Mitchell, never "got" JB...too unmelodic for me.

[Guest WPaulVanDyk]

I would personally pick Sam Cooke or Jackie Wilson or Otis Redding but

James Brown has done the lot and just because he was a funk man dosen't make him any less soul that's like saying because KC and the Sunshine Band was a disco group they are not soul.

[Guest]

I think that bit about Otis being championed by the white media is a bit unfair. Just because the hippies reacted positively (they were tripping their tits off) at Monterrey Pop? Otis was much more than what the white rock media made of him. He would have blown minds in spite of them. Tony Rounce needs to get his gloves on! :-)

Only just read this thread. Deep breath....

Fooking hells bells! Yeah you are right MACCA, in fact that that statement regarding 'he would have gone down the white rock road if he'd lived' is the most outrageous and outlandish claim I have encountered on this site.

And boy is that saying something! Mindbendingly arrogant in the xxxtreme.

[Guest JJMMWGDuPree]

Lest we forget, both Otis Redding and James Brown started their musical careers as Little Richard impersonators. Brown even did some gigs using the great man's name. From this I have to deduce that Little Richard is therefore the Godfather of soul.

In truth this kind of thing is ridiculous though. I saw a soul documentary that credited both Ray Charles and Sam Cook as the one who carried gospel over into rock'n'roll. This happened because two different people wrote the Ray Charles and Sam Cook segments. That massive Jazz documentary a few years back credited both Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald as the first scat singer. Was Chubby Checker the daddy of the twist? We all know different, but the rest of the world doesn't. There's always someone else who got there first, but the credit always goes to the one with the earlist big hit.

Has anyone listened to early Redbone (Not the singles, they were pop orientatated)? Tell me that's not jazz/funk that Pete DePoe was playing, and more horrifyingly, tell me that's not disco that Pete Vegas is playing...

My dad was a collector of early jazz records and most of it is pretty rubbish, but I reckon I could make a case that Louis Russell's 'Brand new call of the freaks' or Chief Os-ko-mon's 'Sun dance' were early funk, and they were recorded in the 30s.

Then again, I always reckoned that live, Ravel's Bolero was pretty bloody funky.

So was JB the godfather of soul?

Hell no. Nowhere near. He gave himself that name.

...If I have to choose, I'm sayin' Rufus Thomas.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

I think that bit about Otis being championed by the white media is a bit unfair. Just because the hippies reacted positively (they were tripping their tits off) at Monterrey Pop? Otis was much more than what the white rock media made of him. He would have blown minds in spite of them. Tony Rounce needs to get his gloves on! :-)

...I would do, but what's the point. People who don't get what was truly great about Otis are never going to get it. The recordings Otis made in the weeks and even down to days preceding his death, and that were issued posthumously, show that he was never going to pander to the "white rock media", no matter how much they championed him.

They also show that, had he not met an untimely death, he would have continued to lead where others followed. Mainstream black American music might have followed a considerably different path if Otis had lived to remain at its vanguard...

Having said that, the Godfather Of Soul is Little Willie John, as I've stated on here before. Amen...

[Spacehopper]

JB the godfather ?.....well he did to time for trying to kill his mrs with a shotgun didnt he ?...dont know about cutting horses heads off but still a dodgy dood !

but seriously yes hes funk rather than what we call soul but its all branches of the same tree really and although i dont really do funk i DO like JB so he must have sumfin different....get on the good foot...superbad...popcorn wow !

and then how soulful is mans world or please please me...

and then the rnb of night train !

musically he was a genius...saw him live at a festival in bristol few years back...what a buzz he created...packed marqee and even 15 year olds were getting it....

on the whole i prefer 'northern' artists but along with marvin and stevie you have to recognise their genius and influence (even prince's stage act) and i think thats why he deserves the title of the godfather.....

and he was cool as fuck and could dance...

i mean you only have to say JB and everyone knows who you mean !!

[Douglas]

I can't believe i've just read all those posts and still no mention of Bobby Womack, surely Mr Womack should be considered ahead of the likes of Luther Vandross.

[Gary Samways]

I can't believe i've just read all those posts and still no mention of Bobby Womack, surely Mr Womack should be considered ahead of the likes of Luther Vandross.

beat me to it douglas! just about to post the exact same! the man was/is a soul genius who always delivers! my personal fave "is this the thanks i get". if you don't know it , you need to

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

I can't believe i've just read all those posts and still no mention of Bobby Womack, surely Mr Womack should be considered ahead of the likes of Luther Vandross.

...But why would a man whose solo career didn't really get underway until the md-late 60s be considered for the title "Godfather Of Soul" ahead of the likes of those we've mentioned who pioneered it in the mid-late 50s?

If you re-read the title of Webby's thread you'll set that it's not "who is your favourite artist", it's "was James Brown the Godfather Of Soul". Even if you don't think he is (and I don't) he's definitely got a stronger claim on being it than someone who cut his first solo records 10 years after James' debut.

That's why there's been no mention of Bobby Womack, and that's why there shouldn't be...

[Douglas]

Tony with all respect i understood the question first time, i merely stated he should be considered AHEAD of the likes of Luther Vandross, as for James Brown i can't stand him.

[Liamgp]

James Carr, OV Wright and Garnet Mimms were all far more soulful male singers than JB to me. I assume this nickname appeared after the release of the film The Godfather when Brown had a habit of giving himself increasingly ludicrous nicknames...like:

Soul Brother Number One, Sex Machine, Mr. Dynamite, The Hardest Working Man in Show Business, The King of Funk, Minister of The New New Super Heavy Funk, Mr. Please Please Please Please Her and The Godfather of Soul.

[Guest REVILOT]

Contender

LITTLE WILLIE JOHN

Taught James Brown everything and an incredible voice before Luther was born....

[Guest Darryl]

Lest we forget, both Otis Redding and James Brown started their musical careers as Little Richard impersonators. Brown even did some gigs using the great man's name. From this I have to deduce that Little Richard is therefore the Godfather of soul.

In truth this kind of thing is ridiculous though. I saw a soul documentary that credited both Ray Charles and Sam Cook as the one who carried gospel over into rock'n'roll. This happened because two different people wrote the Ray Charles and Sam Cook segments. That massive Jazz documentary a few years back credited both Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald as the first scat singer. Was Chubby Checker the daddy of the twist? We all know different, but the rest of the world doesn't. There's always someone else who got there first, but the credit always goes to the one with the earlist big hit.

Has anyone listened to early Redbone (Not the singles, they were pop orientatated)? Tell me that's not jazz/funk that Pete DePoe was playing, and more horrifyingly, tell me that's not disco that Pete Vegas is playing...

My dad was a collector of early jazz records and most of it is pretty rubbish, but I reckon I could make a case that Louis Russell's 'Brand new call of the freaks' or Chief Os-ko-mon's 'Sun dance' were early funk, and they were recorded in the 30s.

Then again, I always reckoned that live, Ravel's Bolero was pretty bloody funky.

So was JB the godfather of soul?

Hell no. Nowhere near. He gave himself that name.

...If I have to choose, I'm sayin' Rufus Thomas.

I still lurk here from time to time, and as one who lived through the era, I have to agree here. James Brown crowned himself the "Godfather of Soul." If I had to choose one (and this is really tough), I'd have to go with Little Richard. Just my two cents.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Sorry, double posting...

Edited September 10, 2009 by TONY ROUNCE

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Tony with all respect i understood the question first time, i merely stated he should be considered AHEAD of the likes of Luther Vandross, as for James Brown i can't stand him.

You patently do not 'get' what this thread is all about.

People who started their careers in earnest after the arrival of soul music, and thus played no part in its genesis and revelation, cannot be considered to be 'The Godfather Of Soul' . Thus there can be no argument in favour of Bobby Womack's nomination for TGOS, no matter how good many of his records are.

That you "can't stand" JB does not disqualify him from having a bigger claim on the title than Womack. He made his first record in 1955, which puts him on the scene a good 7 years before Bobby and his brothers first recorded for SAR.

Anyway, I'll remind you again that the one and only GOS is Little Willie John who - unlike JB, Little Richard and some of the other worthy Georgia-born pioneers mentioned so far, who all drew their inspiration from their homeboy Billy Wright - seemingly arrived in 1955 with a totally unique style, one that that drew nothing from those who preceded him.

It's from Willie's fabulous and timeless mid 50s recordings that the modern soul style evolved. The only other true contenders for the title would have to be the '5' Royales, who pretty much invented the art of soul group harmony as it evolved into the sound of the Temptations and their ilk.

[Guest JJMMWGDuPree]

I think that bit about Otis being championed by the white media is a bit unfair. Just because the hippies reacted positively (they were tripping their tits off) at Monterrey Pop? Otis was much more than what the white rock media made of him. He would have blown minds in spite of them. Tony Rounce needs to get his gloves on! :-)

This quote caused me to dig out my Monterey Pop albums. Aside from surprising me at just how good The Association were, it also created another question for me. If Lou Rawls had come on in Otis' spot, late into Saturday, and Otis Redding had been the one 2nd up on Friday afternoon, would Lou have been the one 'championed by the white media'?

It sure would've made all those Brit soul bands more bearable...