Confirm Or Deny?

[Gasher]

OK JUST SAW THE CRAZY PRICE THIS WENT FOR ON MANNIES AUCTION

BUT THE GREY MATTER IS PUZZLED ........AS AFTER A CONVERSATION TODAY WITH MY MATE TUBBS

HE SEEMED TO REMEMBER ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO WHEN THIS TURNED UP

GUY HENNIGAN FOUND THE LABEL OWNER (THE SAME TIME HE GOT JOE WEBSTER OFF THE SAME GUY)AND THIS WAS ON A MASTER TAPE .... HAD NOT BEEN ISSUED AT THE TIME AND THE OWNER PRESSED THEM UP FOR THE MARKET..SO ITS NOT A REAL ISSUE FROM THE 60,S BUT A Late 80,S early 90,s PRESS

so does this make it a reissue if so is it now the most expensive reissue sold AT 450 QUID?

CONFIRMATION PLEASE OR IS THIS BULL SPIT

your thoughts fellow sourcers

gasher

Edited July 17, 2009 by GASHER

[Iancsloft]

They came out of a shop in Brighton did,nt they late 80,s ...

In the last 12 months i have sold two one for £100 and the other 120

400 + is a bit mad but like the sayin goes a 45 is only worth what someone

is willing to pay in your case Gash you want them for nowt

C / UP as Linda Jones if i remember correctly i,m sure Dave Flynn as some info on

this 45 ect

Edited July 17, 2009 by IANCSLOFT

[Garethx]

Completely correct gents. Released in about '87. Eugene Davis's daughter was married to an English guy at the time and living somewhere in Essex I believe: she was involved somewhere along the line with distributing the record but didn't get far beyond dumping the stock in a few record shops in the south east. I bought mine from John Manship a few months later for £20 and was a bit non-plussed by the look of the 45 when I took it out of the envelope as it was quite obviously a brand new record with modern typesetting.

Guy spun this on a dub made from master tape and covered it as Eula Cooper.

[Guest]

OK JUST SAW THE CRAZY PRICE THIS WENT FOR ON MANNIES AUCTION

BUT THE GREY MATTER IS PUZZLED ........AS AFTER A CONVERSATION TODAY WITH MY MATE TUBBS

HE SEEMED TO REMEMBER ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO WHEN THIS TURNED UP

GUY HENNIGAN FOUND THE LABEL OWNER (THE SAME TIME HE GOT JOE WEBSTER OFF THE SAME GUY)AND THIS WAS ON A MASTER TAPE .... HAD NOT BEEN ISSUED AT THE TIME AND THE OWNER PRESSED THEM UP FOR THE MARKET..SO ITS NOT A REAL ISSUE FROM THE 60,S BUT A Late 80,S early 90,s PRESS

so does this make it a reissue if so is it now the most expensive reissue sold AT 450 QUID?

CONFIRMATION PLEASE OR IS THIS BULL SPIT

your thoughts fellow sourcers

gasher

I have been keeping an eye on ebay to see if any USA sellers find any copies in the States.

I have not seen any copies turn up from over there yet.

All the copies on Popsike are from the UK.

[Garethx]

I suspect this was pressed in the UK too, don't have a copy to hand to check but it wouldn't surprise me if that were the case. As SITB says it would be very difficult to find a copy in the US other than those bought from UK-based sellers.

As for the price it seems excessive, but as Ian says a rare record is worth precisely what someone is willing to pay in order to own it. In numerical terms it's probably as rare as Angela Davis (though obviously more copies of that 45 were trashed than have actually survived) with, I'm guessing, a pressing run in the low hundreds.

I sold the copy I bought as a relatively new release on here for £110 last year. I could have sold it many times over (in fact I had more PMs for it than any other 45 I've ever offered for sale on the forum). It was bought by a well-respected record dealer who knows the price of fish.

[Anoraks Corner]

C / UP as Linda Jones if i remember correctly i,m sure Dave Flynn as some info on this 45 ect

Hi Ian...hope you're well squire...still have the beer-towel you gave me safely tucked in my trousers...keep the faith brother, right on!

Anyhow, back to Nancy Butts...it is roughly as Ian and Gareth have already stated, as in there was a relation living in Essex married to a UK bloke...Guy playing it off an acetate...the relation pressed them up and dumped them in a few shops in Essex (Westcliff on Sea and Southend)...and it being a press from @ 1987/8. Think there were 300 copies and they were as cheap as £15 and as 'expensive' as £40 for a fair while. I think I flogged/traded some with Kev Draper at the time?! Great tune.

[Gasher]

so is it a reissue then?? or a boot would be FAIRER

I WAS ONLY 20 QUID FOR MINE TOO

MR CUNNLIFFE BUGGER OF OLD MAN AND DONT BE SO CHEEKY

DID YOU NOT KNOW COPPER WIRE WAS INVENTED BY TWO JOCKS FIGHTING OVER A PENNY??

HOPE YOU AND JANE ARE WELL MATE..AND KEEPING YOUR ZIMMER POLISHED

WHEN YOU GONNA BUY ME A PINT THEN?

GASHER

[Garethx]

Neither a boot nor a re-issue, G. as no original issue existed at the time it was recorded (I'm guessing 1968-70).

[Gasher]

BUT SURELY IF ITS OF A MSTER TAPE WITH NO ISSUE LEGALLY AND NOT SOLD OR SANCTIONED BY THE ORIGINAL LABEL OWNER

."the relation pressed them up and dumped them in a few shops in Essex "

IM SURE WITHOUT PERMISSION ON PAPER OR RIGHTS LEGALLY.

...THEN ITS A BOOT

OR NOT????

[Guest]

I suspect this was pressed in the UK too, don't have a copy to hand to check but it wouldn't surprise me if that were the case.

The run out groove has GM scratched in.

This has always made me think its a USA press as other USA records have GM scratched in the run-outs.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Guest

[Anoraks Corner]

BUT SURELY IF ITS OF A MSTER TAPE WITH NO ISSUE LEGALLY AND NOT SOLD OR SANCTIONED BY THE ORIGINAL LABEL OWNER

."the relation pressed them up and dumped them in a few shops in Essex "

Thinking about it further, the shop owner I got them from said that they came from the daughter of the label owner?

I believe they are legit...but...are a modern day press of a vintage unreleased at-the-time recording.

[Garethx]

A bit of a grey area, but I think label owner Eugene Davis was instrumental in putting the record out, so it's a legitimate first issue. As you mention above it was during this time that Mr. Davis sent Guy Hennigan the two fabled copies of Joseph Webster on Crow: I think he played it through at home only once, decided it was crap and and eventually sold both copies for £2.00 each.

I'm sure Guy won't mind me mentioning this but many years later at Lifeline in Dewsbury we were sat talking in the record bar. Butch was on in the hall and played a record which Guy thought was phenomenal and asked me if I knew it's identity. It was, of course, Joseph Webster on Crow!

[Davetay]

A bit of a grey area, but I think label owner Eugene Davis was instrumental in putting the record out, so it's a legitimate first issue. As you mention above it was during this time that Mr. Davis sent Guy Hennigan the two fabled copies of Joseph Webster on Crow: I think he played it through at home only once, decided it was crap and and eventually sold both copies for £2.00 each.

I'm sure Guy won't mind me mentioning this but many years later at Lifeline in Dewsbury we were sat talking in the record bar. Butch was on in the hall and played a record which Guy thought was phenomenal and asked me if I knew it's identity. It was, of course, Joseph Webster on Crow!

That sure sounds like something Guy would do, and knowing Guy he won't mind.

[Anoraks Corner]

I'm sure Guy won't mind me mentioning this but many years later at Lifeline in Dewsbury we were sat talking in the record bar. Butch was on in the hall and played a record which Guy thought was phenomenal and asked me if I knew it's identity. It was, of course, Joseph Webster on Crow!

Last year I played him the instrumental version...he thought it sounded familiar!

[Chalky]

Last year I played him the instrumental version...he thought it sounded familiar!

wasn't it the instrumental Guy played in the 80's or both sides?

[Ernie Andrews]

Thinking about it further, the shop owner I got them from said that they came from the daughter of the label owner?

I believe they are legit...but...are a modern day press of a vintage unreleased at-the-time recording.

Label Owner? Their is no label! What we are talking about is whether the person who pressed it up had permission of the rights(Copyright) owner to do so.

The label owner as you call him may not have actually owned the rights to the record- They may be owned by someone else or one of the big guys - e.g. Sony or Universal. or maybe never registered the music which means any tom dick or harry can press it up.

So unlees the above can be answered you dont know if its legit or not - Just ring BMI and they will tell you if its registered or not.

[Guest franky m]

I know the guy from southend that was married to Eugene Davis,s daughter , he has no interest in northern soul and has never been on the scene and is not a record dealer , he was the guy that turned up the nancy butts 45 , on one of his trips to visit the family in detroit , he came back with a large box of the nancy butts 45 and a few others on the flaming arrow / crow label that Eugene still had left , this included 2 copys of the J webster crow 45 and 3 copys of the exquisites crow 45 , one of which was recently auctioned on J manship , and one went to crazy beat records . I dont think the Nancy Butts were reissues , why press that when he could have pressed the J webster or A Davis and made a lot more money ? the flaming arrow and crow realeases seem to have an unusual numbering system , and the fonts on the nancy butts look very similar to that used on the j webster and other crow 45,s , that were pressed in the 70,s , i will try and find out some more info , Eugene passed away last year

Edited July 22, 2009 by franky m

[Sebastian]

Label Owner? Their is no label! What we are talking about is whether the person who pressed it up had permission of the rights(Copyright) owner to do so.

The label owner as you call him may not have actually owned the rights to the record- They may be owned by someone else or one of the big guys - e.g. Sony or Universal. or maybe never registered the music which means any tom dick or harry can press it up.

So unlees the above can be answered you dont know if its legit or not - Just ring BMI and they will tell you if its registered or not.

Ofcourse there is a label and a label owner. Flaming Arrow was a well established label owned and run by Eugene Davis. He wrote that Nancy Butts 45. He produced it as well. I think we can be pretty sure that he had the rights to do whatever he felt like doing with those tunes. He kept releasing records on Flaming Arrow from the late 60s well into the 80s (if not even 90s). The tunes on the Nancy Butts 45 are not registered with BMI, but many of the later Crow and Flaming Arrow tunes aren't. Just because a tune isn't listed with BMI, ASCAP etc. doesn't mean that no one owns the rights to the recording.

[Guest]

I know the guy from southend that was married to Eugene Davis,s daughter , he has no interest in northern soul and has never been on the scene and is not a record dealer , he was the guy that turned up the nancy butts 45 , on one of his trips to visit the family in detroit , he came back with a large box of the nancy butts 45 and a few others on the flaming arrow / crow label that Eugene still had left , this included 2 copys of the J webster crow 45 and 3 copys of the exquisites crow 45 , one of which was recently auctioned on J manship , and one went to crazy beat records . I dont think the Nancy Butts were reissues , why press that when he could have pressed the J webster or A Davis and made a lot more money ? the flaming arrow and crow realeases seem to have an unusual numbering system , and the fonts on the nancy butts look very similar to that used on the j webster and other crow 45,s , that were pressed in the 70,s , i will try and find out some more info , Eugene passed away last year

That GM scratched in the run out groove, had me thinking the record could have come from the Detroit area!

[Guest]

Different release but looks very similar to the Nancy Butts!

[Guest franky m]

Different release but looks very similar to the Nancy Butts!

any idea what year this came out ?

[Guest]

any idea what year this came out ?

Sorry no, I saw it for sale on USA ebay and kept the picture because it looks so much like the Nancy Butts release. Not distributed by Atlantic!

If this was made in the USA at the time of recording, how do people know Nancy Butts wasn't ?

[Sebastian]

I've got some Flaming Arrow 45s that looks similar to the Nancy Butts 45.

All of the ones I've got features late 70s or early 80s recordings.

Here are some of them:

Edited July 31, 2009 by Sebastian