Sitting In The Park - Billy Stewart Or Georgie Fame

[Guest]

I've just been to the Olympics 2012 website, to see if they have any plans to host an event called "Talking Bo**oks".

Disappointingly they don't, as I'd planned to enter you for it.

Oh well, there's always 2016 I suppose...

Yeah, well its pretty clear to me you see yourself as the world's leading authority on the record business and how dare somebody come on here and disgaree or contradict you. Now lets see how personal you can get, I'm sure you can try a little harder than that eh?

[Guest MBarrett]

You have missed the relevance of the two most crucial words in that sentence. I.E 'SERIOUSLY SUPPORTIVE'.

How much more SERIOUSLY SUPPORTIVE could Dusty Springfield possibly have been than working with Vicki Wickham to put on the Sounds of Motown T.V. special in 1965.

This was groundbreaking stuff.

A whole programme of black artists (Temptations, Supremes, Miracles, Martha and the Vandellas, Stevie Wonder PLUS Dusty) on prime time television.

Dusty was a huge star at the time. If it had backfired on her her career could have gone straight down the pan.

Have you watched that programme and heard the commitment in her voice and seen the affection and energy that she puts into her performances.

And by the way have you noticed how over the years the Motown artists have levelled a lot more criticism at their own boss (BG) than their fellow white musicians.

Straight answers please.

MB

Edited August 1, 2009 by MBarrett

[Guest]

Yeah, well its pretty clear to me you see yourself as the world's leading authority on the record business and how dare somebody come on here and disgaree or contradict you. Now lets see how personal you can get, I'm sure you can try a little harder than that eh?

Ya' both talk b*ll*x now pack it in

[Guest]

Georgie Fame crap. This is a soul site, no comparison between Moody Blues and Bessie Banks, she's the business.

No, you have not read the invisible Sub Heading on the home page....

The one that says nobody must dare disagree with TONY ROUNCE or he will label you as a lunatic!

[Guest]

How much more SERIOUSLY SUPPORTIVE could Dusty Springfield possibly have been than working with Vicki Wickham to put on the Sounds of Motown T.V. special in 1965.

This was groundbreaking stuff.

A whole programme of black artists (Temptations, Supremes, Miracles, Martha and the Vandellas, Stevie Wonder PLUS Dusty) on prime time television.

Dusty was a huge star at the time. If it had backfired on her her career could have gone straight down the pan.

Have you watched that programme and heard the commitment in her voice and seen the affection and energy that she puts into her performances.

And by the way have you noticed how over the years the Motown artists have levelled a lot more criticism at their own boss (BG) than their fellow white musicians.

Straight answers please.

MB

Ok, I will respond to that from my perspective although again, some people might not like it.

As regards DUSTY SPRINGFIELD, yes, she was a big star at the time. I like some of DUSTY'S recordings but to me she comes a very poor second vocally to a considerable number of Black female Soul artists. And that is the ones who we know from their records...

However, she was notable for her support of Soul Artists and that is why, of course you pick her as the best example.

DUSTY was very much the product of her era, again, like ELVIS a white artist that sang in a black style and one who enjoyed great popularity as a result of that and her physical presence/personality. Great looks, charisma, the perfect early 60s Pop package. But when it comes to an honest assessment of vocal talent somebody like LINDA JONES, as just one single example, is in a completely different league. In fact I've sat in small Gospel Churches in America and heard Black Women howling Gospel who could sing the pants off of DUSTY and most other White female pop stars. They never will get the chance to of course, but visually and vocally back in 1963-64, DUSTY was the perfect product for the Pop Industry. (Excepting one factor which I shall touch on shortly). Gospel Culture is shrinking somewhat now, but how many of those Women do you think there was out there in the 50s and 60s? (Which is exactly why we have the huge trove of amazing female Northern Soul cuts).

Yes of course I have watched that programme but I think you have to ask yourself a serious question here...

THE TEMPTATIONS? Utterly Fantastic All-Time Vocal Greats, magnificent combined vocal ranges, world class songs, stunning harmonies, male group perfection incarnate...

SMOKEY AND THE MIRACLES? A fantastic Lead Singer, great back up Guys, and - quite uniquely for a Black Group back then, the same lead singer also being one of the most talented composers/songwriters in Soul/pop history.

MARTHA REEVES AND THE VANDELLAS? A particular favourite of DUSTY'S and one of the finest Female Soul groups in History. MARTHA REEVES, a great emotive Vocalist who utilised her own range to the maximum. Combined again with superb backing vocals and the majestic might of the MOTOWN SOUND at it's very pinnacle.

STEVIE WONDER....ETC, ETC...

My friend, without being rude, I simply ask you, how much of a risk was this to take? The sheer quality of The Motown Artists was destined to hit worldwide acclaim and DUSTY herself, whilst clearly an avid devotee of the Artsists and the genre, receieved great kudos herself from the project, including the public gratitude of BERRY GORDY. How on earth could the Motown project have 'backfired' on DUSTY SPRINGFIELD, given the unprecedented quality ratios of the Acts, the songs, the choreography and the whole Motown vision?

To claim that DUSTY'S career could have gone 'straight down the pan' seems somewhat melodramatic. Forgive me, but I cannot quite see how presenting a TV Special containing a selection of the world's most talented Musical performers at the time, was likely to destroy her career?

Whilst DUSTY and VICKI WICKHAM did well to provide this platform, the combined talent of the Motown Artists as Singers, Writers and 'live' performers simply dwarfs hers, there was/is no comparision. Fair play to DUSTY, I believe for actually truly realising this but please, lets keep it balanced and not overplay her role in their success. The main reason Motown flourished was because of it's unrivalled talent roster and the power of it's creative teams. DUSTY was not MOTHER THERESA and her own career owed a huge amount to the vocal stylisations of Black American Artists. She covered a large amount of Black original records and in a way, the TV special can be viewed as her 'payback' for that. But it is indeed a rare example and as I say, she was always on a winning horse with that project, in my eyes!

But for an early 60s Pop Diva, DUSTY SPRINGFIELD was indeed quite unique in terms of her stance on Race and the oppression of social groupings. I would suggest that this stemmed from both her open admiration for Black Soul artists and to a further degree, the aspect of her own sexuality. DUSTY was a lesbian during a period when this most certainly did not match the 'teen-pop' package masters recipes and as is well documented, this aspect of her life saw her submitted to various rounds of rumour mongering and spite. Including of course the stories of her affairs with several notable Black Women.

DUSTY SPRINGFIELD'S most impressive stance on behalf of the Civil Rights struggle, was in fact the contract that she negotiated when she toured South Africa in 1964. With Apartheid at it's height, DUSTY stipulated that she would not perform in front of a segregated audience which was quite a revolutionary position for a White Pop star to take whilst on tour in South Africa. The tour folded after 3 shows and DUSTY'S stance was highly controversial within the record Industry, to say the least. When one looks at South Africa today and the millions earnt by International stars who have flocked to entertain the wealthy white Patrons of Sun City, then it is the shock waves caused in the industry by DUSTY'S actions in this arena, that can be viewed as truly 'groundbreaking'. For the Pop industry of 1964, her actions and commitment were courageous and rare.

She most certainly deserves to be acknowledged for them alongside other White Artists of the time like BOBBY DARIN.

As for your comments about MOTOWN Artsists and their criticisms of BERRY GORDY, I think that it is a seperate subject and a huge one at that! But if you think about it, the type of Motown Artists you refer to are not really a valid example of the people we are talking about here. Many of them did have big hits with their original versions of songs, both in the States and in Europe. Therefore if there were problems with financial aspects, salaries, royalties, whatever, their main gripe would naturally be with the owner of the company that they believed to be responsible.

Also it is fair to point out that Motown (Unlike Stax, contrary to the public image) was a unique company being it was black owned and dominated, so it's hardly surprising that their resentments were aimed at a black man is it?

Edited August 2, 2009 by chorleysoul

[Guest]

Have you read any of this debate or do you just specialise in stupid one liners?

Enter the parrot. Hows that one?

[Pete S]

Enter the parrot. Hows that one?

The fact that you think "Bessie Banks, she's the business" is a quote to be reckoned with says a lot really.

Why don't you just shuffle off back to where you came from in the first place and bore them to death instead?

[Guest]

The fact that you think "Bessie Banks, she's the business" is a quote to be reckoned with says a lot really.

Why don't you just shuffle off back to where you came from in the first place and bore them to death instead?

A quote to be reckoned with? What are you talking about Pete? I merely pointed out that somebody voices their opinion and they get labelled a 'loony'. Her first contribution to the subject, too. Nice stuff. I'm not surprised if some people don't post much. So maybe she's not the most literate person in the world, she's got a right to her view same as everybody else. As for your 'shuffle off' stuff, all I have done is disagree with you and TONY on a number of quite serious points. I've tried to present my case for those differences of viewpoint. Mockery and sarcasm never won any debate Pete. Its the last thing that will deter me, for one.

Anyway, I thought you'd closed this down now? That in itself is becoming a boring sub-saga!

[Guest]

The fact that you think "Bessie Banks, she's the business" is a quote to be reckoned with says a lot really.

Why don't you just shuffle off back to where you came from in the first place and bore them to death instead?

A quote to be reckoned with? What are you talking about Pete? I merely pointed out that somebody voices their opinion and they get labelled a 'loony'. Her first contribution to the subject, too. Nice stuff. I'm not surprised if some people don't post much. So maybe she's not the most literate person in the world, she's got a right to her view same as everybody else. As for your 'shuffle off' stuff, all I have done is disagree with you and TONY on a number of quite serious points. I've tried to present my case for those differences of viewpoint. Mockery and sarcasm never won any debate Pete. Its the last thing that will deter me, for one.

Anyway, I thought you'd closed this down now? That in itself is becoming a boring sub-saga!

[Pete S]

Anyway, I thought you'd closed this down now? That in itself is becoming a boring sub-saga!

It looked like it had run out of steam and ground to a halt.

And I only reopened it last time because you asked me to.

[dthedrug]

This is very true Pete I clearly remember the end? just before the start..can you? if its so the this is the begining off the end not the end of the beguining? "If You No What I Mean Chief"?-REMEMBER THIS :-Machines were Mice and MEN were LIONS, "Once upon a time", Now it is the OPPERSIT,,,,It,s "Twice UpoTime"?..

.KEEP ON TRUCKIN BOYZ! DAVE KIL.

Edited August 4, 2009 by dthedrug

[Guest]

It looked like it had run out of steam and ground to a halt.

And I only reopened it last time because you asked me to.

That is true, I did think you closed it too early the first time but I thought you'd called it a day now and I reckon it has run its legs, bloody hell, over 200 responses and another thread opened up as a direct result, no actually two, THE JOLSON one and THE GODIN one, yeah shut it down now mate, before this thing eats us all alive!

Like I told you though, seriously listened to both records again on Sunday and I genuinely still prefer BESSIE BANKS by a mile. It has a recognisable Soul 'feel' which is my thing and also a deeper, sparser sense. She might have struggled with the song according to TONY but good records don't come easy. This definetly has a more sorrowful, mournful feel to it than THE MOODY BLUES, which sounds like its had the kitchen sink slammed all over it, as well as probably three times the production budget. To me its overblown . Funny thing, taste is it not!?

[bri pinch]

STILL PREFER GEORRGIE FAME, TO BILLY STEWART AND THE SPINNERS, THO

REGARDS, BRI PINCH.

[Guest]

Sorry, you lost me completely there. A little less Wikipedia English and a little more of the Queen's stuff, and I might have been able to glean something from your meanderings...

If it's 'really getting silly', it's you who's making it so. Why not do the forum a favour and give your Thesaurus a rest. I'm so bored with your carryings on now that I'd even be inclined to let you have the last word, if I thought I might understand it...

How about letting one of the All-Time Greats of Chicago Soul have the last word on this subject? This is him talking in response to a claim by DICK CLARK from 'American Bandstand' that the covers issue was not a big thing....

'Sometimes when people are not affected themselves by an injury, they have a tendency to play down the extent of that injury'

JERRY BUTLER

Good enough for me. Probably explains a lot.

[Guest Ed B]

What a wonderful post to read.

I stand up and give you three cheers,Top post ever In my opinion,

I have in the past in various posts,Stated the money equasion in the Northern Soul genre,

And have been slated (for want of better words),For asking or putting forward the question of dosh,

Did any singer or song writer,record or write a song hoping it would be a failiure,

No I would have thought they wanted the song to be a hit,and if it was would if luck had it's way be covered by who ever where ever

Georgie Fame,The Hollies,The Beatles,The Rolling Stones and many many others covered what we would call Soul singles,And with each cover came more money for the writers of those songs,And also many peoples first memories of certain songs,

Um Um Um Um for instance how many people heard the Major Lance version first,or did they hear Wayne Fontanas version,Sandie Shaw"Always something" or Lou Johnson,

Chicken or the egg

Grant

[Guest Ed B]

I Think the word "POP" in the Quote Sums it Up!!!!!

Edited October 27, 2009 by Ed B

[dthedrug]

I Think the word "POP" in the Quote Sums it Up!!!!!

SILLY ME! I THOUGHT THIS HAD RUN IT,S COURSE? ANY WAY I CAN STILL SAY WITH AUTHORITY

I HAVE HAD THE PRIVALAGE OF SEEING BOTH AT THE SAME VENUE, **the FLAMINGO CLUB**AND THE FAT MAN WINS EVERY TIME?***.

HOWEVER IF I SAW THEM TODAY OUR LANCASHIRE HERO WOULD BE THE WINNER? AS THE FAT MAN PASSED AWAY YEARS AGO, THEN SO DID GEORGIE LAST TIME I SAW HIM LIVE WAS AT THE CALIFORNIA BALLROOM DUNSTABLE 1970/1 WITH 10 OTHERS, TALK ABOUT PROFESSIONAL, SADLEY NOT HE HAD TO DO HIS TURN! MUPPET DAVE KIL

Edited October 28, 2009 by dthedrug

[Haydn]

Georgie Fame covers it well:thumbsup:

A good thread this, I'm anispeptic, frasmotic, even compunctuous to have caused you such pericombobulation.

I hope you will not object if I also offer my most enthusiastic contrafibularities. (E. Blackadder)

[dthedrug]

Georgie Fame covers it well:thumbsup:

A good thread this, I'm anispeptic, frasmotic, even compunctuous to have caused you such pericombobulation.

I hope you will not object if I also offer my most enthusiastic contrafibularities. (E. Blackadder)

INDEED YOU MAY YOUNG SIR, INDEED YOU MAY.

** NICE ONE ** DAVE (STILL TRYING TO WORK OUT WHY LAST SATURDAY WAS THE BEST SOUL EVENT IN MANY YEARS?) KIL.

[Pete S]

SILLY ME! I THOUGHT THIS HAD RUN IT,S COURSE? ANY WAY I CAN STILL SAY WITH AUTHORITY

I HAVE HAD THE PRIVALAGE OF SEEING BOTH AT THE SAME VENUE, **the FLAMINGO CLUB**AND THE FAT MAN WINS EVERY TIME?***.

HOWEVER IF I SAW THEM TODAY OUR LANCASHIRE HERO WOULD BE THE WINNER? AS THE FAT MAN PASSED AWAY YEARS AGO, THEN SO DID GEORGIE LAST TIME I SAW HIM LIVE WAS AT THE CALIFORNIA BALLROOM DUNSTABLE 1970/1 WITH 10 OTHERS, TALK ABOUT PROFESSIONAL, SADLEY NOT HE HAD TO DO HIS TURN! MUPPET DAVE KIL

Dave I was just wondering if that was a member of Chicory Tip sitting next to you on your avatar photo.

[Guest Richard Bergman]

Georgie Fame for me.

[slimharpo]

You're missing the point here, nobody in their right mind would say that georgie Fame is a better soul singer than Billy Stewart, all I was saying in the original post is that I prefer Georgie Fame's version - because of it's musical and vocal arrangement. Sometimes, copies are better than the originals - case in point is one mentioned elsewhere, Bessie Banks vs The Moody Blues versions of Go Now - the cover absolutely murders the original, which sounds like a demo that should never have been released.

I like Georgie's vocals but hate the flute intrusions. Get the U.S. release for a stonking version of Last Night on the flip. As for Moody Blues/Bessie Banks, in my opinion the MB's version is a perfect example of all that was bad about UK cover versions. These covers were usually produced by someone who had absolutely no feel for soul music and often seemed to have the Northern Dance Orchestra providing the backing, usually with too much strident brass and echo. Bessie Banks might have been rough and ready but was so soulful, probably done in one take, whereas the MB's and their producer made sure they eliminated any 'feel and spontaneity' for the song, probably taking 300+ takes - Bland ruled in UK covers - in my opinion!

[Britishbarry]

Has to be Billy Stewart for me . To this day when i play it I am taken straight back to a small club in Reading where my obsession with soul music started