Pete S Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 I dont need to report you to anybody. I mean your repeated insults will not deter me from maintaining my position, but more importantly my right to post in whatever writing style I like. There is no paranoia going on here either. After telling me you thought the thread should close, I agreed if you let me post my last thoughts on the subject which I did. Then you do not close the thread and come back with the insulting post I have just commented on. Now in doing so, you are saying you are 'carrying on the debate'.... No you are not, you are not making a single reference to any point I have raised. You are merely using a communication to somebody else in order to insult my writing style and to also laughably claim I am using this forum as some form of literary career platform! lol Somebody else has opened a thread carrying the title of my article. TONY has already posted in it, even though he too was supposedly finished with this topic. I have responded and if you wish to carry on a wider debate regarding this subject, I am more than happy to do so in that thread. I will keep to my word here though and not post any further contribution regarding topic matter in this thread. Now, are we going to call it a day here with the personal stuff and get back to debating issues? If you remember I also PM'd you last night and hoped that you agreed that this stuff shouldn't be taken seriously! Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
paultp Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Logic is on my side. I'm afraid this gave me a mental image of you stroking a white cat whilst typing .... ..... then I realised you'd need three hands to do that. Errr .. you haven't have you? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I'm afraid this gave me a mental image of you stroking a white cat whilst typing .... ..... then I realised you'd need three hands to do that. Errr .. you haven't have you? Maybe the cat is the one doing the typing ........ Malc Burton Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I have finished with THIS topic (i.e. Georgie Fame, Moody Blues and their superiority over the American originals). I may not be finished with the other topic. And my posting in that other thread was both in answer to a question and the right answer to that question. What's Al Jolson got to do with anything in this thread? If you cannot understand - and by the way, I believe you understand completely the use of metaphorics that was applied, and the accompanying conceptual extension to cover the subject - then I am not going to waste time clarifying it here, being I have already done so in the thread carrying his name! This is really getting silly. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 If you remember I also PM'd you last night and hoped that you agreed that this stuff shouldn't be taken seriously! You know it is possible to take things reasonably seriously and still enjoy them! Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Pete S Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 You know it is possible to take things reasonably seriously and still enjoy them! Well I don't know how you're taking it now that you're accusing me of intimidation. For f*cks sake, it's only a chat forum! Besides, I don't think I've insulted you at all, I've just not liked/enjoyed/got/agree with what you've written and how you've written it, not YOU personally, there's been no name calling has there? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Well I don't know how you're taking it now that you're accusing me of intimidation. For f*cks sake, it's only a chat forum! Besides, I don't think I've insulted you at all, I've just not liked/enjoyed/got/agree with what you've written and how you've written it, not YOU personally, there's been no name calling has there? I can assure you I am still sat here with a big smile on my face, like I told you this is a bunfight compared to the football stuff to which you agreed... By the way I have just posted in agreement with you on RONNIE AND ROBYN which should show you I hold no grudges! Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest TONY ROUNCE Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) If you cannot understand - and by the way, I believe you understand completely the use of metaphorics that was applied, and the accompanying conceptual extension to cover the subject - then I am not going to waste time clarifying it here, being I have already done so in the thread carrying his name! This is really getting silly. Sorry, you lost me completely there. A little less Wikipedia English and a little more of the Queen's stuff, and I might have been able to glean something from your meanderings... If it's 'really getting silly', it's you who's making it so. Why not do the forum a favour and give your Thesaurus a rest. I'm so bored with your carryings on now that I'd even be inclined to let you have the last word, if I thought I might understand it... Edited July 31, 2009 by TONY ROUNCE Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Sean Hampsey Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I prefer Billy Stewarts version. Quite like most versions though to be honest. Just a great song, innit. Didn't we cover it a few months ago? Pretty sure I listed a load of covers. ... as you were! Sean Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Sorry, you lost me completely there. A little less Wikipedia English and a little more of the Queen's stuff, and I might have been able to glean something from your meanderings... If it's 'really getting silly', it's you who's making it so. Why not do the forum a favour and give your Thesaurus a rest. I'm so bored with your carryings on now that I'd even be inclined to let you have the last word, if I thought I might understand it... I am likewise equally as bored with your contributions although I find it hard to imagine either of you being content to give me the last word. As for your continued sarcasm, sorry I did not realise words like 'conceptual' and 'metaphorics' were that complicated. Personally I think a fair percentage of people understand what they mean fully. Of course, you are now speaking in the plural on behalf of 'the forum' so I ought to be prepared to dilute my diction until it matches your assessment of what everybody should and could understand. Yeah. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Pete S Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 I am likewise equally as bored with your contributions although I find it hard to imagine either of you being content to give me the last word. As for your continued sarcasm, sorry I did not realise words like 'conceptual' and 'metaphorics' were that complicated. Personally I think a fair percentage of people understand what they mean fully. Of course, you are now speaking in the plural on behalf of 'the forum' so I ought to be prepared to dilute my diction until it matches your assessment of what everybody should and could understand. Yeah. I've heard and used metaphor but I've never heard the word mataphoric before! I'm going to start using it. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I've heard and used metaphor but I've never heard the word mataphoric before! I'm going to start using it. Not quite with you, did I make a typo there or are you saying that there is no such word as metaphoric??? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest johnm Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Not quite with you, did I make a typo there or are you saying that there is no such word as metaphoric??? stop being silly and tell us ........... which you prefer Georgie Fame or Billy Stewart -- me ,as I have already stated in post#2, prefer Billy Stewart. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Pete S Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) Not quite with you, did I make a typo there or are you saying that there is no such word as metaphoric??? No I said I didn't know there was such a a word as metaphoric. Seriously. Or maybe I just never saw it in print. Edited July 31, 2009 by Pete S Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 No I said I didn't know there was such a a word as metaphoric. Seriously. Or maybe I just never saw it in print. Yes, metaphoric is a word. Can be used in tense such as 'a metaphoric poem', 'a metaphoric image', a 'metaphoric title' etc, etc. Wish I had invented one that good! Better than DAVE GODIN'S 'Blackamericasoulexploitation'! (I do have a sense of humour!) Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 stop being silly and tell us ........... which you prefer Georgie Fame or Billy Stewart -- me ,as I have already stated in post#2, prefer Billy Stewart. I clarified that in in post 31 on this thread . Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 stop being silly and tell us ........... which you prefer Georgie Fame or Billy Stewart -- me ,as I have already stated in post#2, prefer Billy Stewart. I clarified that in in post 31 on this thread . Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 stop being silly and tell us ........... which you prefer Georgie Fame or Billy Stewart -- me ,as I have already stated in post#2, prefer Billy Stewart. I clarified that in in post 31 on this thread . Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
dthedrug Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I thought it would be a good idea? to "show the rabbit to the dog"..I still have my original view point, however have you actually played this recently? and appreciate there is only one way of owning it is on a rare UK Demo, than we are talking Rare records!sorry about that! I have spent to long on JM site to-day aahhmmm! no what I mean? DAVE KIL. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest john s Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Yes, metaphoric is a word. Can be used in tense such as 'a metaphoric poem', 'a metaphoric image', a 'metaphoric title' etc, etc. Wish I had invented one that good! Better than DAVE GODIN'S 'Blackamericasoulexploitation'! (I do have a sense of humour!) 'Metaphoric' is certainly a word, though I would have thought that 'Metaphorical' is the more usual form. 'Metaphorics', however, is a new one on me, and also the Cambridge Dictionary, and, indeed, the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. There is, however, a hip-hop outfit called "The Metaphorics", who are, according to their website, "the dopest hip hop duo in existence". Personally, I prefer Georgie Fame's version of 'Sitting in the park'. Billy Stewart's versions of 'Summertime', 'Everyday I have the blues', and 'Secret love', however, are unbeatable. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
macca Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Yes, metaphoric is a word. Can be used in tense such as 'a metaphoric poem', 'a metaphoric image', a 'metaphoric title' etc, etc. Wish I had invented one that good! Better than DAVE GODIN'S 'Blackamericasoulexploitation'! (I do have a sense of humour!) Maybe that was Dave's Teutonic side getting the better of him. German is full of multi-compound nouns. I particularly like this one: Ueberseedeutschlehrerinternetmailinglistenfragenstellundantwortkundigen which means, wait for it: People well versed in asking questions and supplying answers on the Internet Mailing List of German teachers abroad. Did Blackamericansoulexploitation finally get whittled down, without Dave's consent, to Blaxploitation, the tremendously hip cinema genre? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 'Metaphoric' is certainly a word, though I would have thought that 'Metaphorical' is the more usual form. 'Metaphorics', however, is a new one on me, and also the Cambridge Dictionary, and, indeed, the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. There is, however, a hip-hop outfit called "The Metaphorics", who are, according to their website, "the dopest hip hop duo in existence". Personally, I prefer Georgie Fame's version of 'Sitting in the park'. Billy Stewart's versions of 'Summertime', 'Everyday I have the blues', and 'Secret love', however, are unbeatable. You are right about that word but I have used it in a kind of 'slang' fashion (Akin to the duo you mention) and it is a word that I think ought to exist officially! As for 'usual', always room for new trends and 'words'! I like 'Metaphorics' has a great ring to it! Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 German teachers abroad. Did Blackamericansoulexploitation finally get whittled down, without Dave's consent, to Blaxploitation, the tremendously hip cinema genre? You right about that shit... https://www.youtube.c...h?v=FoRHEeBY2-I Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 (edited) 'Metaphoric' is certainly a word, though I would have thought that 'Metaphorical' is the more usual form. 'Metaphorics', however, is a new one on me, and also the Cambridge Dictionary, and, indeed, the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. There is, however, a hip-hop outfit called "The Metaphorics", who are, according to their website, "the dopest hip hop duo in existence". Personally, I prefer Georgie Fame's version of 'Sitting in the park'. Billy Stewart's versions of 'Summertime', 'Everyday I have the blues', and 'Secret love', however, are unbeatable. Having acknowledged that there may not technically be such a word, ie you have been unable to find it in dictionaries, try typing 'metaphorics' into Google and you will find an endless stream of highly efficient and renowned Academics including it in the titles of publications on a myriad of subjects worldwide....In fact it appears that this word is in common usage throughout the world of academia. If it's good enough for all of those gentlemen I am sure it's fair play for Soul Source! Edited August 2, 2009 by chorleysoul Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest john s Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Having acknowledged that there may not technically be such a word, ie you have been unable to find it in dictionarys, try typing 'metaphorics' into Google and you will find an endless stream of highly efficient and renowned Academics including it in the titles of publications on a myriad of subjects worldwide....In fact it appears that this word is in common usage throughout the world of academia. If it's good enough for all of those gentlemen I am sure it's fair play for Soul Source! So, when you say "there may not technically be such a word", but cite its use by "an endless stream of highly efficient and renowned Academics including it in the titles of publications on a myriad of subjects worldwide", does that mean this word exists outside the Derridean world of obfuscation, obscurantism and intellectual one-upmanship? It seems a fairly obscure word to use on an internet forum not largely populated by deconstructivist philosophers, but rather by fans - of all ages and educational achievements - of soul music. Especially, one might say, by someone who can't spell 'dictionaries', and seems unsure of the difference between 'there' and 'their'. I can't disagree with the main thrust of your argument, though, which appears to be 'racism is bad'. Indeed it is, indeed it is. Anyway, I'm off to bed now, not metaphorically, but in a very real sense. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Matt Male Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 ...does that mean this word exists outside the Derridean world of obfuscation, obscurantism and intellectual one-upmanship? I bloody hate Derrida. Carry on... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest alanbonthrone Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Anyone fancy a pint Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
soulAdequateNP Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 To settle the "metaphoric" issue, there is such a word in the Apple Dictionary but only as a derivative of metaphor: Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 There no such word as derivative... ... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest john s Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 To settle the "metaphoric" issue, there is such a word in the Apple Dictionary but only as a derivative of metaphor: No-one 's disputing the adjective 'metaphoric' - it's the noun 'metaphorics' that's a bit whiffy... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 So, when you say "there may not technically be such a word", but cite its use by "an endless stream of highly efficient and renowned Academics including it in the titles of publications on a myriad of subjects worldwide", does that mean this word exists outside the Derridean world of obfuscation, obscurantism and intellectual one-upmanship? It seems a fairly obscure word to use on an internet forum not largely populated by deconstructivist philosophers, but rather by fans - of all ages and educational achievements - of soul music. Especially, one might say, by someone who can't spell 'dictionaries', and seems unsure of the difference between 'there' and 'their'. I can't disagree with the main thrust of your argument, though, which appears to be 'racism is bad'. Indeed it is, indeed it is. Anyway, I'm off to bed now, not metaphorically, but in a very real sense. Oh god, does that make you feel good, highlighting typos and spelling mistakes?!!! I will apologise to you if you are offended by the use of the word 'metaphorics' and congratulate you on your genteel, witty sarcasm. Water off the proverbial Ducks blah, blah...What I will merely point out is that there are obviously people like you on here who fully understand the meaning of such words and as I have already said, I did not realise there was a SOUL SOURCE official glossary, you'll have to direct me to it. I do notice an interesting dichotomy within your observation - 'populated by fans of all ages AND EDUCATIONAL ACHIEVEMENTS - of Soul music.' Not quite sure of the reason behind your emphasis there? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Mike Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 getting way off topic keep it relevant please! Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 (edited) No-one 's disputing the adjective 'metaphoric' - it's the noun 'metaphorics' that's a bit whiffy... Clearly a mighty big whiff then, given the amount of worldwide wrtitings and publications that contain it in their titles, but MIKE is right, this has gone far too far from topic and that as a result of PETE saying 'It's got nothing to do with the fact that he prefers Soul', but the writing style etc, etc... Have stated to him that the thread has now run it's life but he has not chosen to close it yet. Edited August 1, 2009 by chorleysoul Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Pete S Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 OK can we all put out dictionaries down, leave Chorleysoul alone and go back to discussing the relative merits of Georgie Fame version vs Billy Stewart version, Moody Blues version vs Bessie Banks version, not much point carrying on if it's not about that. It's a good job I didn't bring up Rod Stewarts version of Oh No Not My Baby though Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest TONY ROUNCE Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 OK can we all put out dictionaries down, leave Chorleysoul alone and go back to discussing the relative merits of Georgie Fame version vs Billy Stewart version, Moody Blues version vs Bessie Banks version, not much point carrying on if it's not about that. It's a good job I didn't bring up Rod Stewarts version of Oh No Not My Baby though I prefer Manfred Mann's version of ONNMB to Maxine Brown's. Actually that's a lie, I don't prefer it at all. But I thought I'd say I did anyway, just for the hell of it.... I do think I just about prefer the Shirelles' original version to Maxine's, though... Now here's a thought - Maxine's version prevented the Shirelles from being released as a single (it was relegated to a Scepter budget LP). Does that make our lovely Maxine the same sort of demonic presence as GF and the Moodies, too? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Sean Hampsey Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 I prefer Manfred Mann's version of ONNMB to Maxine Brown's. Actually that's a lie, I don't prefer it at all. But I thought I'd say I did anyway, just for the hell of it.... I do think I just about prefer the Shirelles' original version to Maxine's, though... Aretha's is my fave version! Sean Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 I don't think it can be denied that in the 50s and 60s many black artists were exploited or not given the same opportunities as white ones. The problem to me is when that principle is applied in every case. Then it gets especially muddy when applied to UK cover versions. Plenty of white acts had their records covered in by British acts and released as singles in the UK - off the top of my head there's Billy Fury's cover of Tony Orlando's "Halfway to Paradise" and Susan Maughan's "Bobby's Girl", originally by Marcie Blane. These UK releases were huge hits and totally wiped out the chances of the original artists getting a look-in in Britain. Surely the fact is that UK based artists were better placed to tour and promote the records than someone in the USA, so the colour of the original artist loses some of its relevence. The example of Timebox quoted earlier is a really interesting example, as their biggest hit was a cover of an original by white Italian Americans. Were the Four Seasons being exploited or was this secondary exploitation of black people because some people in the UK consider some Four Seasons records to be performed in a style that apes black music? You also have to take into account that all this talk about 'having soul' is often more important to fans and collectors like us lot than the artists. If you hang around with professional musicians you'll find that most of them are purely interested in whether it's a good song or not. And how about that Otis covering "Satisfaction" Yikes! ps Not keen on either version of Go Now as the song doesn't do it for me, but Georgies version of Sitting in the Park tops Billy's in my book. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Me Billy Stewart. Here's a few others. Sitting in the Park by Billy Stewart (1965) Sitting in the Park by Georgie Fame (1966) Sitting in the Park by Owen Gray & Maximum Breed (1969) Sitting in the Park by Freddie McGregor (1979) Sitting in the Park by Hortense Ellis (1979) Sitting in the Park by Risco Connection (1979) Sitting in the Park by Bobby Thurston (1980) Sitting in the Park by GQ (1980) Sitting in the Park by Flo & Eddie (1981) Sitting in the Park by Junior Reid (1984) Sitting in the Park by The Zombies (1985) Sitting in the Park by Steve Beresford, David Toop, John Zorn & Tonie Marshall (1986) Sitting in the Park by NRBQ (1987) Sitting in the Park by Bunny Wailer (1993) Sitting in the Park by Pure Gold (1995) Sitting in the Park by Kaleo O Kalani (1995) Sitting in the Park by A Perfect Blend (July 1996) Sitting in the Park by CFM (1997) Sitting in the Park by Sly, Slick & Wicked (1999) Sitting in the Park by Frankie Stewart's Wonn Bandd (2000) Sitting in the Park by Thriller U (2000) Sitting in the Park by Junior Delahaye (2002) Sitting in the Park by Solanna (2002) Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 (edited) I prefer Manfred Mann's version of ONNMB to Maxine Brown's. Actually that's a lie, I don't prefer it at all. But I thought I'd say I did anyway, just for the hell of it.... I do think I just about prefer the Shirelles' original version to Maxine's, though... Now here's a thought - Maxine's version prevented the Shirelles from being released as a single (it was relegated to a Scepter budget LP). Does that make our lovely Maxine the same sort of demonic presence as GF and the Moodies, too? At the risk of infuriating you guys just as it's got back to a cosy little debate about which versions you all prefer personally, I thought I'd just offer one of the thousands of american articles that exist, backing up the historical premise of my own observations as regarding the overall cultural relevance of White pop cover versions.. Excerpt from... SPOTLIGHT ON LAVERN BAKER 1929 - 1997 by ALICIA SCHIMENECK Ms. Baker's phenomenal career continued to blossom throughout the fifties, but many obstacles lay ahead for this young talented black woman. Being "one of the first Atlantic artists to crossover to the pop charts" (Gaar 9) she became the figure who represented the gradual acceptance of black musicians by white audiences. She faced constant scrutiny from both the public and the rock world, but some white audiences as well as blacks continued to show LaVern their support by listening and becoming more interested in r & b artists like herself. The tide began to turn slightly further for black artists as r&b increased in popularity and songs that previously only hit on the r&b - black- charts began to generate interest on the Top 40 - white - charts as well (Gaar 6). Engulfed by this political and musical transition, Ms. Baker was still able to rise to the top. Although Ms. Baker achieved some success, her many struggles surfaced once again when she "suffered from the segregationist impulses of the larger culture by having her songs 'covered' by a white singer, Georgia Gibbs, whose sanitized versions greatly outsold Baker's own" ("L.B. '91 Performer "). A particular incident in 1955 involving Georgia Gibbs and an imitation of Ms. Baker's "Tweedle Dee" infuriated her so much that she contacted her Congressman. In the end nothing resulted from the incident, "but it shows the rock'n'roll spirit of LaVern Baker, whose similar gobs of spunk, fire, and wit gave greatness to all her hits" (Marsh). Incidents like the one described above were not unheard of during this time period, particularly in the music field. Many black musicians experienced similar situations, having white artists using material as their own without any recognition or compensation to the original artist. LaVern as well as other black artists, also suffered discrimination from widespread rock stations that played mostly songs by white musicians. Because these stations were wary of playing black records, musicians like Baker lost significant airtime, wages, and sales due to the white cover album singers that imitated their styles ("L.B. "91 Performer"). LaVern and other musicians faced many prejudices in the music business, but those weren't their only problems. The increasing success of the rock & roll and r&b movements was challenged by many political and religious leaders who opposed this new kind of music. These leaders felt that having rock and roll's roots "in the black community was reason enough to condemn it; the presence of 'suggestive' lyrics, the emotional frenzy the music generated in live performance, and the fact that blacks and whites were able to freely mix at such performances" (Gaar 10) confirmed in their minds the immoral behavior they thought this music was creating. With LaVern's determination and the support of Atlantic Records she was able to overcome some of these hurdles. END OF EXCERPT MY NOTE: Interesting from my perspective for two reasons. As I have just stated in the opening paragraph, there are thousands of articles and books dissecting this subject which ultimately reach more or less the same conclusions as those reached in my article. But the use of the sentence 'she suffered from the segregationalist impulses of the larger culture, by having her songs 'covered' by white singer GEORGIA GIBBS, whose sanitized versions greatly outsold Baker's own' will perhaps act as a reference for those who seem to imagine that the use of such language to discuss this issue is irrelevant and something to sneer at. It is actually quite commonplace in serious examinations of subjects such as these. (It is worth noting that ALICIA SCHIMENECK is in fact quoting from another Writer on the exact same subject here.) Secondly, the anger of LaVern Baker at this state of affairs, ( and I point out, this is one EXTREMELY WELL KNOWN artist) clearly seems to indicate that Black Americans did indeed feel a deep sense of grievance via affects the White Pop Cover Culture had on them and their careers. There really should be no need for anybody to draw further on the vast resovoir of evidence freely available to re-iterate and underline these facts. If people however, simply prefer to say what version they like best - and do not wish to delve into the cultural history of Soul Music and the relevance of an individual subject such as White Pop covers - fair enough. Personally, I think it is important to grasp the historical context of all this and I maintain that the type of records discussed here in this thread are genetically related to the exact same culture that LaVern Baker berated her US Congressman over, all those years ago. Nobody is saying that the White Musicians did not admire the Black originators - many of them patently did. But however distasteful it may be to some people, the practise of White pop 'covers' is unavoidably linked to the problems faced by Black Musicians/Artists, within the overall struggle for Civil Rights and social equality in The United States Of America. As a result, I am sorry, but I find your concluding sentence slightly childish. Edited August 1, 2009 by chorleysoul Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Matt Male Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 (edited) In the thread about records you just don't get, Tony says he prefers The Moody Blues "Go Now" to Bessie Banks version; so do I, by a mile, but I wonder if anyone had listened to Georgie Fame's version of Sitting In The Park? I really like Billy Stewart, and his version is fantastic, but I think Georgie Fame's version is even better if thats possible. Am I deluded or does anyone else think so? I agree Pete. Although while i prefer the arrangement on Georgie Fame's i think Billy's vocal just edges it for me. Just. But all things considered, yes GF. Edited August 1, 2009 by Matt Male Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Hang about Chorley. Didn't you say: "Talented and popular as he was, GEORGIE in fact maintained a lengthy and notable career off the back of Black America. I can think of countless examples wherein white artists actually laid the foundations of lucrative careers by copying Soul artists and there are very FEW who actually stood up and held a seriously supportive flag for the original artists." But now you say: "Nobody is saying that the White Musicians did not admire the Black originators - many of them patently did". Isn't that what part of this whole row..sorry.. thread is about - recognition? Completely lost now, and despite trying to stay on-topic I can't help but point that ALICIA SCHIMENECK is an anagram of 'mechanical sickie'. I am very sorry. Godz Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 (edited) I don't think it can be denied that in the 50s and 60s many black artists were exploited or not given the same opportunities as white ones. The problem to me is when that principle is applied in every case. Then it gets especially muddy when applied to UK cover versions. Plenty of white acts had their records covered in by British acts and released as singles in the UK - off the top of my head there's Billy Fury's cover of Tony Orlando's "Halfway to Paradise" and Susan Maughan's "Bobby's Girl", originally by Marcie Blane. These UK releases were huge hits and totally wiped out the chances of the original artists getting a look-in in Britain. Surely the fact is that UK based artists were better placed to tour and promote the records than someone in the USA, so the colour of the original artist loses some of its relevence. The example of Timebox quoted earlier is a really interesting example, as their biggest hit was a cover of an original by white Italian Americans. Were the Four Seasons being exploited or was this secondary exploitation of black people because some people in the UK consider some Four Seasons records to be performed in a style that apes black music? You also have to take into account that all this talk about 'having soul' is often more important to fans and collectors like us lot than the artists. If you hang around with professional musicians you'll find that most of them are purely interested in whether it's a good song or not. And how about that Otis covering "Satisfaction" Yikes! It is an interesting point you make. What I believe happened is very simple. Producers in this country simply widened the scope of their 'cover' targets. The culture of all this originated in the practise of White Americans covering Black originals. In the UK, Producers realised that not only was there a treasure trove of unheralded Black US records to replicate, but that there was also another bagful of White American records that were unlikely to get a release, or be severly hindered by under resourcing in European markets. Hence TIMEBOX being a particularly astute choice of MIKE'S when he added their avatar to my article. Their Producer systematically utilised the American r/b scene, both Black and Blue-eyed genres, in a 3 year sustained campaign to break the group. He did so, I believe, because whilst their ability as Muso's was unquestionable, their ability to create 'hit' pop tunes was not. This most certainly apparent on the songs of their own creation. So like so many others MICHAEL ALDRED simply dug into the suitcase of unknown American gems. So to a degree, you can certainly argue that some White American artsists also suffered from this syndrome, although a serious examination of the subject will dictate that it is the Black Originators of the muisc who felt the most aggrieved, being many of the White Americans were 'copyists' themselves anyway! As for the Black covers of White tunes, in particular those like OTIS's version of 'Satisfaction', I think you have missed a point. The vast majority of those records were already massive hits for White artists before the Black Artists covered them. Whilst the covering of such material was perhaps shrewd business sense on behalf of Stax and OTIS, the biggest profits generated by most of those songs were already in the bank accounts of the White Artists and Record Companies involved in creating the originals. It is a similar culture to that of most Reggae covers of Soul tunes. The Soul tunes covered by Jamaican Artists were often already big hits, thats what made them attractive, although I would truly love to know if LEE 'SCRATCH' PERRY chose to copy 'Hurt so Good' because of MILLIE JACKSON'S version, or whether he was aware of KATIE LOVE'S original?!! As for the aspect of Musicians, you ought to speak to MICK JONES of The Clash about that. Ask him about when they went to Jamaica and what happened when the Island's Musicians realised there was a bunch of 'white Rock Boys' in town to record with a Jamaican Producer! No, the issue of what Musicians feel is far more complex than the definition you have offered although I understand where you are coming from. It depends very seriously on which bunch of Musicians you speak to and what have been their exact experiences in the business. The Great Soul Producer GEORGE KERR is a legendary figure on our scene who had very strong attitudes to this type of subject. Edited August 2, 2009 by chorleysoul Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 My main point was that it was common practice for UK acts to cover US songs because they had proven themselves to be hits and thus made commercial sense. In fairness mate, you've applied some pretty rigid thinking in order to make that fit your argument. Mind you I'm not desperate to 'win' any debate so maybe it's not such a big deal. The Otis bit was tongue in cheek by the way. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Hang about Chorley. Didn't you say: "Talented and popular as he was, GEORGIE in fact maintained a lengthy and notable career off the back of Black America. I can think of countless examples wherein white artists actually laid the foundations of lucrative careers by copying Soul artists and there are very FEW who actually stood up and held a seriously supportive flag for the original artists." But now you say: "Nobody is saying that the White Musicians did not admire the Black originators - many of them patently did". Isn't that what part of this whole row..sorry.. thread is about - recognition? Completely lost now, and despite trying to stay on-topic I can't help but point that ALICIA SCHIMENECK is an anagram of 'mechanical sickie'. I am very sorry. Godz You have missed the relevance of the two most crucial words in that sentence. I.E 'SERIOUSLY SUPPORTIVE'. I dont mean mentioning Motown in interviews or telling people MARY WELLS was their favourite singer, of course a lot of that went on and you know exactly what I mean. I mean, very few of the Acts that benefitted financially from the covers culture ever felt inclined to redirect some of their performance royalties back to the original performers, who as I have already stated, receieved NOTHING AT ALL from these White hits. Unless they'd actually written the songs themselves and were in line for a share of composers royalties. Which eliminated the vast majority of Black Vocalists from the table, as people like TONY know fully well. I am currently reading an article wherein LITTLE RICHARD dismisses quite bitterly the supposed 'moral support' of White Musicians like JOHN LENNON etc and wonders when White Rock stars who have benefitted massively in terms of finance were actually going to show him and other Black Originators of R/B, Rock'n'Roll, call it what you like, some money! Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 (edited) My main point was that it was common practice for UK acts to cover US songs because they had proven themselves to be hits and thus made commercial sense. In fairness mate, you've applied some pretty rigid thinking in order to make that fit your argument. Mind you I'm not desperate to 'win' any debate so maybe it's not such a big deal. The Otis bit was tongue in cheek by the way. No, I can assurre you that I have considered the question of White US records that were covered by UK Producers and Acts at length long ago. I responded instantly with what is my full belief. There was no rigid thinking, I'm bloody incapable of that this morning! The White records covered, were simply another genetic development of the covers culture that had plauged the American Musical business for a number of years and in the main affected Black Artists negatively. UK Producers were lucky - when British pop took off and those who had an astute ear 'across the pond' or good connections feeding them, could cherry pick from both schools AND BOY DID THEY! Which is why TIMEBOX are a perfect example - I did not sit down and select their list of covers! I did realise you were being TIC about OTIS, but sometimes humour exposes a valid point and that question was worth clarifying. As for the anagrams, not bloody going there! Edited August 2, 2009 by chorleysoul Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 (edited) My main point was that it was common practice for UK acts to cover US songs because they had proven themselves to be hits and thus made commercial sense. In fairness mate, you've applied some pretty rigid thinking in order to make that fit your argument. Mind you I'm not desperate to 'win' any debate so maybe it's not such a big deal. The Otis bit was tongue in cheek by the way. By the way, yes it most certainly did make 'commercial sense' to the guys who earned money from covers, I think that is what angered so many people! But the barometers of 'commercial success' can only be measured fairly, if all competitors in a market start from a equal playing field, hence the legislation in this country as regards 'cartels'. If there had been similar laws back in the US in the 50s, all this would have turned out very differently I am sure! Edited August 1, 2009 by chorleysoul Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest maria Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 In the thread about records you just don't get, Tony says he prefers The Moody Blues "Go Now" to Bessie Banks version; so do I, by a mile, but I wonder if anyone had listened to Georgie Fame's version of Sitting In The Park? I really like Billy Stewart, and his version is fantastic, but I think Georgie Fame's version is even better if thats possible. Am I deluded or does anyone else think so? Georgie Fame crap. This is a soul site, no comparison between Moody Blues and Bessie Banks, she's the business. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest TONY ROUNCE Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 I've just been to the Olympics 2012 website, to see if they have any plans to host an event called "Talking Bo**oks". Disappointingly they don't, as I'd planned to enter you for it. Oh well, there's always 2016 I suppose... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest TONY ROUNCE Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Georgie Fame crap. This is a soul site, no comparison between Moody Blues and Bessie Banks, she's the business. Oh good, another loony. Welcome aboard, there's a seat vacant upstairs next to Chorleysoul... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Pete S Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 Georgie Fame crap. This is a soul site, no comparison between Moody Blues and Bessie Banks, she's the business. Have you read any of this debate or do you just specialise in stupid one liners? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
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