Who Invented Funk?

[Dayo]

Don't know if this one is a chestnut, but does anyone have any thoughts on the origins of funk?

Are there any seminal recordings prior to the well known James Brown records? Can we put a date on the birth of funk? 1968? Earlier?

[Guest]

Don't know if this one is a chestnut, but does anyone have any thoughts on the origins of funk? 

Are there any seminal recordings prior to the well known James Brown records?  Can we put a date on the birth of funk?  1968?  Earlier?

link

Where do you think you are "funk/source"or something,anyway i thought the germans invented it?!?!?! .Keepin`it soulfull.....

[Guest wrighty]

Don't know if this one is a chestnut, but does anyone have any thoughts on the origins of funk? 

Are there any seminal recordings prior to the well known James Brown records?  Can we put a date on the birth of funk?  1968?  Earlier?

link

a lot of people check james brown's 'papa's got a brand new bag' as one of those records associated with the birth of funk, it's certainly funky in an r+b sense, i would lean towards 'cold sweat' myself as a better indication of early funk, and certainly one of the best examples of playing 'on the one' i.e. accentuating the first beat of the bar

[Guest Baz]

remember reading in a BBE CD sleave notes about this. cant remember all it said but 'funk originaly comes from the meaning bad smell

[FrankM]

Don't know if this one is a chestnut, but does anyone have any thoughts on the origins of funk? 

Are there any seminal recordings prior to the well known James Brown records?  Can we put a date on the birth of funk?  1968?  Earlier?

link

It depends on how you define funk and one could argue Horce Silver defined it on Blue Note records.

I would argue funk arrived at the Apollo theatre in 1967 when Jamed Brown recorded his second live album. He had a great horn session and Clyde Stubblefield on Drums. Earlier that year he had recorded Cold Sweat in the studio. Fred Wesley trombomne player had lifted the the riff from So What a typical Miles Davis tune of the time and made it into the esential funk riff. It' a great single and put the beat on the one. They took it out on the road and whn they recorded it for Live at The Apollo Volume 2.

It explodes on stage and every instrument including Brown's voice become part of the percussion.

Yes there were funky tunes from before this but with melody as well as rhythm (Sly Stone) but when released in 1968 this version of Cold Sweat showed who had invented funk.

[Guest Dan]

whoever it was, if someone finds them for me i'll shoot them

[Dayo]

It depends on how you define funk and one could argue Horce Silver defined it on Blue Note records.

I would argue funk arrived at the Apollo theatre in 1967 when Jamed Brown recorded his second live album. He had a great horn session and Clyde Stubblefield on Drums. Earlier that year he had recorded Cold Sweat in the studio. Fred Wesley trombomne player had lifted the the riff from So What a typical Miles Davis tune of the time and made it into the esential funk riff. It' a great single and put the beat on the one. They took it out on the road and whn they recorded it for Live at The Apollo Volume 2.

It explodes on stage and every instrument including Brown's voice  become part of the percussion.

Yes there were funky tunes from before this but with melody as well as rhythm (Sly Stone) but when released in 1968 this version of Cold Sweat showed who had invented funk.

link

This was the first proper album I bought and it's still one of my faves. Always wondered what was meant by the expression "one the one"! Thanks

[Guest]

James Trouble ?

[Guest]

whoever it was, if someone finds them for me i'll shoot them

link

"Bob-on"Dan,Bob-on can any-body tell me what "take it to the bridge"is about,Yep while were here!George Clinton,what happend there then???.

[chrissie]

whoever it was, if someone finds them for me i'll shoot them

link

Nah, shooting's too good for them!!

QOF

XX

[Pete S]

whoever it was, if someone finds them for me i'll shoot them

link

And I'll help dispose of the bodies

[Greg Belson]

a lot of people check james brown's 'papa's got a brand new bag' as one of those records associated with the birth of funk, it's certainly funky in an r+b sense, i would lean towards 'cold sweat' myself as a better indication of early funk, and certainly one of the best examples of playing 'on the one' i.e. accentuating the first beat of the bar 

link

Cold Sweat is the track James cites as starting the wagon rolling for him. Penned by Alfred Ellis.

Nathaniel Mayer with 'Love and Affection' surely had a hand in creating the early funk sound, but obviously didn't get anywhere near the exposure that Mr Brown had.

[Guest cC B]

Where do you think you are "funk/source"or something,anyway i thought the germans invented it?!?!?! .Keepin`it soulfull.....

link

Have a listen to THIS and tell me that funk can't be soulful

Cheers,

Christian B

[Guest]

Have a listen to THIS and tell me that funk can't be soulful 

Cheers,

Christian B

link

It is a bit Ironic but I personally feel that James Brown's original is more soulful, and Lou Pride is a funkified cover of JB's tune. I like JB's voice BTW, very soulful when he wants to.

[Simsy]

whoever it was, if someone finds them for me i'll shoot them

link

James Trouble ?

link

And I'll help dispose of the bodies 

link

[Guest James Trouble]

Have a listen to THIS and tell me that funk can't be soulful 

Cheers,

Christian B

link

I think LouPride's "Got To Be Somebody For Me" is more soulful, AND more funky.

Anyone on here who says they wish people who 'invented funk' should be shot should think about all the northern records that would never have been had it not been for all the poeple 'who should be shot'.

[Guest cC B]

It is a bit Ironic but I personally feel that James Brown's original is more soulful, and Lou Pride is a funkified cover of JB's tune. I like JB's voice BTW, very soulful when he wants to.

link

That might be true, but my point was: 'of course funk-music can be soulful'.

CB

Edited June 14, 2005 by cC B

[Guest James Trouble]

That may be true, but my point was: 'of course funk-music can be soulful'.

CB

link

And of course soul music can be funky.

[Guest]

I think LouPride's "Got To Be Somebody For Me" is more soulful, AND more funky.

Anyone on here who says they wish people who 'invented funk' should be shot should think about all the northern records that would never have been had it not been for all the poeple 'who should be shot'.

link

There's a good chance they don't like those particular northern records though. There is an abyss between say Bonnie Herman & Lynne Randall and Rufus Wood & Benny Harper...

[Guest]

Have a listen to THIS and tell me that funk can't be soulful 

Cheers,

Christian B

link

Hi Christian,think funk is just a feeling and the was no one "inventer" ie;i got some belters myself,try Sexy Sexy Sexy;J Brown;Polydor,more than just 3word,strung along in one endless Loop!,Mr Brown at his Funky-soul-arsed best,and the dance floor wouldnt complain either,or the likes of Calvin Arnold,Funky but Soulfull at the same time,now thats Genious!!!.

Edited June 14, 2005 by kenneth aitchison

[Guest]

That might  be true, but my point was: 'of course funk-music can be soulful'.

CB

link

I agree, of course, that funk can be soulful and vice versa.

[Guest James Trouble]

I've always been a little confused by the 'on the one' definition that you hear the likes of James Brown and Bootsy Collins go on about. For example Mickey and The Soul Generation "How Good Is Good" (click here to listen) is one of the best funk records ever made, but there is no 'on the one' action going on. If you ask me it could be a pounding 'northern soul style' stomper.

Edited June 14, 2005 by James Trouble

[Pete S]

This is what confuses me, you say it's one of the best funk instrumentals ever made but it just sounds like a filler b side with no tune or direction.

I do like funky type northern sounds, much more than 'modern' northern; Lou Edwards, Nate Evans, Willie J, High Voltage etc.

[Guest James Trouble]

This is what confuses me, you say it's one of the best funk instrumentals ever made but it just sounds like a filler b side with no tune or direction.

link

As I said, it could be 'northern soul style' instrumental.

[Guest Dan]

Anyone on here who says they wish people who 'invented funk' should be shot should think about all the northern records that would never have been had it not been for all the poeple 'who should be shot'.

link

ah but i'm only saying they should be shot now james

unless you utilised some sort of tardis-like device and travelled back in time to shoot them in the early 60s, before they were about to invent funk, you wouldn't wipe out all their good records, would you?

as jim bowen would say, they're safe.

as a for-instance, ideally you would get to george clinton AFTER the parliaments but BEFORE he went shite.

see where i'm going with this?

[Guest James Trouble]

ah but i'm only saying they should be shot now james

unless you utilised some sort of tardis-like device and travelled back in time to shoot them in the early 60s, before they were about to invent funk, you wouldn't wipe out all their good records, would you?

as jim bowen would say, they're safe.

as a for-instance, ideally you would get to george clinton AFTER the parliaments but BEFORE he went shite.

see where i'm going with this?

link

Who's talking about going back in time? I just think you should think about all the records you dance to that would never have been had it not been for all the people who you think should be shot.

[Guest remus]

I think LouPride's "Got To Be Somebody For Me" is more soulful, AND more funky.

Anyone on here who says they wish people who 'invented funk' should be shot should think about all the northern records that would never have been had it not been for all the poeple 'who should be shot'.

link

The Crow-Your Autumn of tomorrow,..........best Funk record ever!

[Guest James Trouble]

The Crow-Your Autumn of tomorrow,..........best Funk record ever!

link

The Crow sits very well next to "How Good Is Good".

[Guest Dan]

Who's talking about going back in time? I just think you should think about all the records you dance to that would never have been had it not been for all the people who you think should be shot.

link

ah i see it's a sentimental non-shooting argument is it?

i thought we were talking logical non-shooting.

hmmm. tough one.

ok, had a think, still think they should be shot.

(ps am only joking you know, i don't really).

[Guest James Trouble]

ah i see it's a sentimental non-shooting argument is it?

i thought we were talking logical non-shooting.

hmmm. tough one.

ok, had a think, still think they should be shot.

(ps am only joking you know, i don't really).

link

Logically you can't go back in time Dan, that's impossible. Are you on drugs?

[Dayo]

Why am I not surpised that this turned into a "how soulful is funk thread"!

[Guest cC B]

Why am I not surpised that this turned into a "how soulful is funk thread"!

link

Still better & more peaceful than 'originals vs. reissues' threads... or 'Ian Levine/Russ W' threads... or 'black vs. white soul' threads.. .etc.etc.

CB

[Guest Dan]

Logically you can't go back in time Dan, that's impossible. Are you on drugs?

link

i only posited the possibility of using a tardis-like device as providing a means to eliminate the funkers before they became funkers.

this would have the 'double whammy' effect of punishing them for creating funk while simultaneously preventing them from creating it.

i concede that there is a slight logical inconsistency here - one which often rears its head in discussions of theoretical and quantum physics and time travel (often called 'the grandfather effect').

imagine a 'one that got away' situation: you meet, say, george clinton in about 1967.

you patiently explain that you've come from the future to eliminate him before he goes bongo-mad.

he looks at you quizzically and you explain that he's about to get heavily into funk.

what's funk? he asks.

foolishly, you tell him.

then, as you are about to deliver the coup de grace, your gun jams.

george takes a header out of the window, survives and legs it to a nearby studio where he puts into practice everything you've just told him.

now that would be a self-defeating bummer, wouldn't it.

[Guest]

i only posited the possibility of using a tardis-like device as providing a means to eliminate the funkers before they became funkers.

this would have the 'double whammy' effect of punishing them for creating funk while simultaneously preventing them from creating it.

i concede that there is a slight logical inconsistency here - one which often rears its head in discussions of theoretical and quantum physics and time travel (often called 'the grandfather effect').

imagine a 'one that got away' situation: you meet, say, george clinton in about 1967.

you patiently explain that you've come from the future to eliminate him before he goes bongo-mad.

he looks at you quizzically and you explain that he's about to get heavily into funk.

what's funk? he asks.

foolishly, you tell him.

then, as you are about to deliver the coup de grace, your gun jams.

george takes a header out of the window, survives and legs it to a nearby studio where he puts into practice everything you've just told him.

now that would be a self-defeating bummer, wouldn't it.

link

Thats an old episode of 'Quantum Leap'.

[Guest]

Thats an old episode of 'Quantum Leap'. 

link

Shane, don't get worked up. Its George, not Bill.

[Guest ShaneH]

Shane, don't get worked up. Its George, not Bill. 

link

Bill Clinton had soul cos he played the sax

Shane

ps. i got told off for in-jokes not long ago

[Guest hammy]

The origins of funk are with james brown.

The term may have been used in reference to other forms of music prior to this. Frank mentions Horace Silver - but I have to question the criteria for inclusion.

When the jazz writers Nat Hentoff and Leonard Feather waxed lyrical in their delightful sleeve notes and referred to a 'funky blues' - it's clearly a different musical form. Horace Silver, Lee Morgan, Art Blakey, Jackie McLean are all 'hard bop' protagonists of the first rank. This music was a reaction to the frenetic indulgence of bee bop and a tacit call for a return to the 'roots' of the sound - in this context funk means 'badness' or just plain 'digging deep'. The music wasn't overtly political and was played to mixed audiences. I'd even go so far as to say that jazz didn't get political until the arrival of Archie Shepp, Albert Ayler etc in the mid 60s.

David Rosenthal's excellent book 'Hard Bop' puts it all better than I ever could.

Hammy

[Guest woolie mark]

Logically you can't go back in time Dan, that's impossible.

link

what about mr benn then?

anyway, back on thread: i say that it was bootsy's bass lines that refined this branch of blues-music into a contemporary genre

[Guest musicden786]

Don't know if this one is a chestnut, but does anyone have any thoughts on the origins of funk? 

Are there any seminal recordings prior to the well known James Brown records?  Can we put a date on the birth of funk?  1968?  Earlier?

link

Great question to ask, The Origins of Funk.

Just in case its of any help. There was a tune played before the Wheel and at the Wheel which may fit what your looking for. It first came into the Country as a Radio DJ Copy in the early 1960s and was latter released as a B side around 1966.

The details are- Gene Dozier and The Brotherhood-Title-A Hunk Of Funk-Instrumental.

You can find the track on MINIT No 32026.

Be interesting to have your veiws if you get a chance to hear the track.

Best regards.

[Guest Rowly]

whoever it was, if someone finds them for me i'll shoot them

link

WHAT??

You'd shoot the Funk Brothers???

FUNK ROCKS, Maaaan!

[Guest]

Great question to ask, The Origins of Funk.

Just in case its of any help. There was a tune played before the Wheel and at the Wheel which may fit what your looking for. It first came into the Country as a Radio DJ Copy in the early 1960s and was latter released as a B side around 1966. 

The details are- Gene Dozier and The Brotherhood-Title-A Hunk Of Funk-Instrumental.

You can find the track on MINIT No 32026. 

Be interesting to have your veiws if you get a chance to hear the track.

Best regards.

link

Prefer other side,I wanna testify;with pinkie guesting on vocal! ,anyway have not seen this in my box for ages,funny how you find out somethings gone,till its gone,allways been in my box!,last played Snugg!!

[FrankM]

It first came into the Country as a Radio DJ Copy in the early 1960s and was latter released as a B side around 1966.

He didn't sign to Minit till 1966 so how come a radio copy came in in the early sixties? Anyone have soul underground issue 8 with the Gene Dozier story?

Hammy,

Hoarce Silver wrote and recorded maybe the first song with the word "funk" in its title in 1954. He certainly released the first album with "funk" in its title. As someone else mentioned funk is a description of a smell, an odour, an atmosphere. Horace defined it as a musical term. Not the funk we know and love so much these days but more like the funk the Hibs laundress has to wash out the shorts after her team plays Rangers.

[Guest]

Hoarce Silver wrote and recorded maybe the first song with the word "funk" in its title in 1954. He certainly released the first album with "funk" in its title.

link

Donald Byrd said that in the late '50s, "funk" was considered a "bad word." Honestly, I don't know if he meant it literally. However, Byrd considered that he and his counterparts were doing "funk music" aka funky jazz music. Point being, before we can define the birth of the funk genre, we have to look at funk as an adjective: funky. Horace Silver was funky. John Lee Hooker was funky. Donald Byrd was funky. Herbie Hancock was funky ("Watermelon Man" was from 1962). So funky music existed before J.B., but the (near) instrumental, hard J.B.-like genre evolved from that idea of what made music funky, taking just that, stripping the rest away.

[Dayo]

Just want to say thanks to everyone who has taken time to share their knowledge on this thread. You guys rock. Or funk. Whatever!

Colin

[Guest musicden786]

He didn't sign to Minit till 1966 so how come a radio copy came in in the early sixties? Anyone have soul underground issue 8 with the Gene Dozier story?

Hammy,

Hoarce Silver wrote and recorded maybe the first song with the word "funk" in its title in 1954. He certainly released the first album with "funk" in its title. As someone else mentioned funk is a description of a smell, an odour, an atmosphere.  Horace defined it as a musical term. Not the funk we know and  love so much these days but more like the funk the Hibs laundress has to wash out the shorts after her team plays Rangers.

link

Just trying to be helpfull.

Dont want to sound over the top but have to give you a reply.

Lots of things took place in the late fiftites early sixties which are not in books yet.

Lots of articles reporting this period are also way off the mark.

Early soul dance music entering this Country, was passed around hand to hand in true underground tradition. One Radio Jock helped many of us to spread the word and make contact with one anoughter in those days.

Consequently, he became a contact point for Black Artists and received one offs

for air play.

The A side of MINIT 32026 is ONE FOR BESS.

Im not an historian, just an old soul dancer trying to be helpfull and make a contribution.

Hope this fits your question and keeps everything friendly.

Best regards, Denis. DOB 30/10/1941.

[Guest hammy]

He didn't sign to Minit till 1966 so how come a radio copy came in in the early sixties? Anyone have soul underground issue 8 with the Gene Dozier story?

Hammy,

Hoarce Silver wrote and recorded maybe the first song with the word "funk" in its title in 1954. He certainly released the first album with "funk" in its title. As someone else mentioned funk is a description of a smell, an odour, an atmosphere.  Horace defined it as a musical term. Not the funk we know and  love so much these days but more like the funk the Hibs laundress has to wash out the shorts after her team plays Rangers.

link

I disagree. What Horace Silver defined in terms of funk is not a form of music. It was merely a description of one aspect of the hard bop sound. A sound more gritty, spirtual and raw than bee bop's increasingly cliches 'running the changes'.

Putting the word 'funk' in the album title doesn't signify it's a form of music. You're taking a word out of the context of those times, attaching unmerited significance to it, and then - for reasons unknown - linking it to the glorious Hibees battle against the dark forces of the west.

Under the bigoted yolk of the Old Firm, I see parallels with the young Hibees and the jazz expression of the struggle for emancipation and a better world.

Your macaroon bar is in the post.

Hammy

[Dayo]

Just trying to be helpfull.

Dont want to sound over the top but have to give you a reply.

Lots of things took place in the late fiftites early sixties which are not in books yet.

Lots of articles reporting this period are also way off the mark.

Early soul dance music entering this Country, was passed around hand to hand in true underground tradition. One Radio Jock helped many of us to spread the word and make contact with one anoughter in those days.

Consequently, he became a contact point for Black Artists and received one offs

for air play.

The A side of MINIT 32026 is ONE FOR BESS.

Im not an historian, just an old soul dancer trying to be helpfull and make a contribution.

Hope this fits your question and keeps everything friendly.

Best regards, Denis. DOB 30/10/1941.

link

Just curious about the radio jock you mention. An offshore pirate DJ maybe?

I was trying to think who was brave enough to champion Soul music on the air in the early 60's. Mike Raven was an obvious one, but not one of the personality jocks. Emporer Rosko certainly did his bit for Stax/Atlantic. And didn't Johnnie Walker have a soft spot for Motown? Tony Blackburn's penchant for soul is well known but it's hard to consider him a music lovin' DJ.

Maybe this is one for another thread?

[FrankM]

Just curious about the radio jock you mention.  An offshore pirate DJ maybe?

Maybe this is one for another thread?

link

Radio Caroline went on air in August 1964 So possibly Tony Prince? That would be at least a year before Gene Dozier signed to Minit.

Edited June 15, 2005 by FrankM

[Guest]

Radio Caroline went on air in August 1964 So possibly Tony Prince? That would be at least a year before Gene Dozier signed to Minit.

link

Got mine on Liberty,German;picture sleeve ,with Clydie King;my mistakes of yesterday,on the B side,Liberty 15030.

Can some-one tell me why mine says,soul-power,a hunk of funk,and when this was released,says gene dozier and the brotherhood on record,oh!i can see now there must have a soul-power series,if so what other releases are on this series

Edited June 16, 2005 by kenneth aitchison

[Guest]

Just want to say thanks to everyone who has taken time to share their knowledge on this thread. You guys rock.  Or funk.  Whatever!

Colin

link

The Americans have the right idea about funk, its called a douche bag