Nowt Changes

[Steve L]

I was digging through some old mags and came across this article written by Sam in early 79 in Chris Fletcher's (Nottingham?) Soul Source

Thought it might be interesting to post up as a lot of the points he raises could have been written today

[Quinvy]

I was digging through some old mags and came across this article written by Sam in early 79 in Chris Fletcher's (Nottingham?) Soul Source

Thought it might be interesting to post up as a lot of the points he raises could have been written today

Very good, I enjoyed reading that....I never realised that the oldies thing started so far back. Hard to believe, when you consider the quality stuff that was still being discovered at that time, and after, with the Stafford era etc.

[Guest]

Very good, I enjoyed reading that....I never realised that the oldies thing started so far back. Hard to believe, when you consider the quality stuff that was still being discovered at that time, and after, with the Stafford era etc.

perhaps, and i'm not saying it is, just perhaps, it was sour-grapes or self-promotion who knows - but 20 years on there is still a thriving scene

[Russ Vickers]

Very good, I enjoyed reading that....I never realised that the oldies thing started so far back. Hard to believe, when you consider the quality stuff that was still being discovered at that time, and after, with the Stafford era etc.

That particular debate has raged for since well before '79 & will continue to rage for as long as there is a scene...........

Russ

[vaultofsouler]

Very good, I enjoyed reading that....I never realised that the oldies thing started so far back. Hard to believe, when you consider the quality stuff that was still being discovered at that time, and after, with the Stafford era etc.

It is quite ironic that those words of yesteryear or still very much relevant today but I don't think it was so much "the oldies thing" per se Phil.... more like the origins of the "I like what I know and I know what I like" mentality....

It's strange how a lot of, if not all, the "alternative" 60's tunes that Sam mentions in the piece are now part of the present day "I like what I know and I know what I like" scene, or "same old same old" and "top 500" nights as often referred to these days....

So with that, perhaps the more underplayed or alternative sounds of today will be part of the "I like what I know and I know what I like" mentality scene in another decade or so ....

Mind you, I have to smile at his references to the current funk and disco of those days, in the last paragraph, from someone who plays house type stuff (today's disco) on the scene today ....

Edited May 14, 2009 by vaultofsouler

[Steve G]

perhaps, and i'm not saying it is, just perhaps, it was sour-grapes or self-promotion who knows - but 20 years on there is still a thriving scene

Great on your maths Mike - it's 30 years on.......but as others have said this debate has been raging really since the late 70s.....I always blamed Mr M's

[Guest]

Great on your maths Mike - it's 30 years on.......but as others have said this debate has been raging really since the late 70s.....I always blamed Mr M's

sh*t I'm older than I thought

Mind you, I have to smile at his references to the current funk and disco of those days, in the last paragraph, from someone who plays house type stuff (today's disco) on the scene today ....

[Guest Dante]

30 years after, the same story. It's how he reffers to Don Gardner and Larry Clinton as avant-garde 60s stuff

BTW, I've read couple of articles by Sam, and I must say he's not the better writter at all is he?

[Modernsoulsucks]

Great on your maths Mike - it's 30 years on.......but as others have said this debate has been raging really since the late 70s.....I always blamed Mr M's

I don't know why you included "smilie" cos you're spot on, aren't you.

From a quick google it appears to have started September '75. I think up until then there wasn't an "oldies" thing. Sure there were local clubs where they may have played EMIs of current biggies or latest bootlegs but not really oldies as we have now. And of course there were always locals who had current nighter 45s as well. Not just the Wigan and Mecca jocks.

ROD

[Guest biggray1]

Sam as described todays scene very well,shame it wasnt writen yesterday. Modernsouldoesn'tsuck

[Quinvy]

It is quite ironic that those words of yesteryear or still very much relevant today but I don't think it was so much "the oldies thing" per se Phil.... more like the origins of the "I like what I know and I know what I like" mentality....

It's strange how a lot of, if not all, the "alternative" 60's tunes that Sam mentions in the piece are now part of the present day "I like what I know and I know what I like" scene, or "same old same old" and "top 500" nights as often referred to these days....

So with that, perhaps the more underplayed or alternative sounds of today will be part of the "I like what I know and I know what I like" mentality scene in another decade or so ....

Mind you, I have to smile at his references to the current funk and disco of those days, in the last paragraph, from someone who plays house type stuff (today's disco) on the scene today ....

That sounds very true to me Mark...and I did spit my cup of tea all over my keyboard when I read the last paragraph....

[paup-ine]

Very good reading.

Nothing has changed much then!

P

[Guest]

Very good reading.

Nothing has changed much then!

P

As the years come and go , did we expect it to ? .......

Malc Burton

[Guest bazabod_downunder]

You actually look older than you are, that's why you get into pubs & club so easily....only kidding matey, you're as young as you feel.

KTF

Baz

sh*t I'm older than I thought

[Guest bazabod_downunder]

absolutely, just goes to show we're trapped in a time warp whichever you like, oldies, newies, modern, retro, 60's, 70's, 80's...me, I like what I like.

KTF

Baz

I was digging through some old mags and came across this article written by Sam in early 79 in Chris Fletcher's (Nottingham?) Soul Source

Thought it might be interesting to post up as a lot of the points he raises could have been written today

[Guest James Trouble]

I've had a few thoughts on this recently.

Northern Soul is a taste. A broad church of tastes. It's not a genre of music.

Funk, whether the commercial disco stuff that Sam takes about in that article or funk as we now know it is a genre. A type of music. Hip Hop, 50s RnB, 60s detroit soul are genres of music.

A taste, such as northern soul, or deepfunk, or mod can include different genres or types of music.

But newies and oldies are neither of these things. They are an attitude.

I think the pigeon holing of events as 'newies' or 'oldies' is now irrelevant.

Each year there are fewer 'new tunes' to be discovered, especially of quality. The 'newies only brigade' still beat the newies drum though, and use the term 'oldie' almost as an insult, a term of derision. But the 'newies' DJs always play 'oldies' in their sets, only they call them "forgotten oldies". Which is an insult and a put down to the oldies brigade, like saying "we know better than you, if we play an oldie it's because we are quicker witted and have better knowledge". Which they might be. Or they might not be, they could be playing crap.

At the same time the 'oldies forever' lot shout insults of disco or funk at the newies DJs, while they themselves play disco and funk records, but they are oldies so that is ok, they were played at Wigan. KTF and all that.

I think the reality is that there are very few DJs who can do a newies set anymore. I'm not even sure there are any that can sustain a newies set. None. Not even Butch. I've not heard Butch DJ for maybe 2 months, how many tunes will he play tomorrow night at the 100 Club that we have not heard before? A couple? None? How many classics will he play? Mostly? Classics as in we all know the words, know the tune, love it already? They could be one offs, or classics he's made classics, but they are still classics, in our secret little world underneath Oxford Street.

When was the last time there was a DJ who could play new tunes of the quality that Sam mentions in his article from 30 years ago, every month pulling stuff like out that to fill his set with tunes that no one has heard before? In this day and age of the internet and the combined knowledge of the world at their keyboards, I'd say it was a good 10 years ago? Before the internet had taken off?

I remember when "Deepfunk" was at it's most exciting, 1999-2002, the new tunes we got to hear every week was amazing, exciting, a true newies scene. That was probably the last newies scene based on vintage music.

But newies as a genre? As a label to put on a night? No, I think it's dead.

But that doesn't mean that the attitude that is behind the "newies or nothing" concept is dead. It's just represented now by DJs with taste, enthusiasm, wit and guile who a clever with their selection and know how to keep parties exciting, interesting and of value to people who enjoy celebrating this forgotten genius by dancing all night to it.

I personally think there are only a small handful of DJs on the scene today who can do that, and do it very well.

But 'newies' and 'oldies' as a tag to put on nights and parties is, I believe, irrelevant and outdated. There are a few DJs with the attitude to push the occasional new discovery of quality that turns up, and who can keep things interesting, but they are not newies DJs, they are just good DJs.

Even the phrases that are often used such as "forward thinking" or "progressive" means to leave behind and to forget. Which is wrong, there are no DJs, and no dancers or collector who want to forget the great and the worthy. It's an irrelevant tag, IMO. What these tags really say is "You lot are crap and you bore us, we're cooler, we've got better taste, and we're better". Why not just say that? It's what you are really saying, and you might be right.

It would be a swerve ball if Ian Levine really does have a box of 398 great and unknown northern soul monsters that he boasts of having but won't play to anyone, then I am wrong. I don't think I am though.

Edited May 15, 2009 by James Trouble

[Guest Paul]

...It would be a swerve ball if Ian Levine really does have a box of 398 great and unknown northern soul monsters that he boasts of having but won't play to anyone, then I am wrong. I don't think I am though.

Hello James,

I hear you got a mention on Ian's BBC Six radio show, to be broadcast Saturday 23rd May, disputing the claim that you have seven copies of that James Lovejoy record on RCA.

Looking forward to hearing it anyway.

Paul

[Steve G]

Paul is this show available on iplayer, I won't be able to listen at 6pm but will pick it up over the weekend if it's on replay.

[Guest Paul]

Paul is this show available on iplayer, I won't be able to listen at 6pm but will pick it up over the weekend if it's on replay.

Hello Steve,

It might also be on iplayer for a while but you'll be able to hear it on the BBC Radio 6 music website using the "listen again" feature:

www.bbc.co.uk/6music/

There's a soulsource thread about the show at www.soul-source.co.ukIan-Levine-Northern-Soul-Radi-t102324.html

Best regards,

Paul

[Sean Hampsey]

since the late 70s.....I always blamed Mr M's

I made exactly that point here Steve

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/Norther...ene-t77448.html

Oldies were confined to the collection, until M's came along.

But with 40+ years under our belts, I do feel there's room for healthy 'lookbacks' - but the bedrock of the scene should still aim to be progressive (as we always knew it to be).

Sean

[Russ Vickers]

I've had a few thoughts on this recently.

Northern Soul is a taste. A broad church of tastes. It's not a genre of music.

Funk, whether the commercial disco stuff that Sam takes about in that article or funk as we now know it is a genre. A type of music. Hip Hop, 50s RnB, 60s detroit soul are genres of music.

A taste, such as northern soul, or deepfunk, or mod can include different genres or types of music.

But newies and oldies are neither of these things. They are an attitude.

I think the pigeon holing of events as 'newies' or 'oldies' is now irrelevant.

Each year there are fewer 'new tunes' to be discovered, especially of quality. The 'newies only brigade' still beat the newies drum though, and use the term 'oldie' almost as an insult, a term of derision. But the 'newies' DJs always play 'oldies' in their sets, only they call them "forgotten oldies". Which is an insult and a put down to the oldies brigade, like saying "we know better than you, if we play an oldie it's because we are quicker witted and have better knowledge". Which they might be. Or they might not be, they could be playing crap.

At the same time the 'oldies forever' lot shout insults of disco or funk at the newies DJs, while they themselves play disco and funk records, but they are oldies so that is ok, they were played at Wigan. KTF and all that.

I think the reality is that there are very few DJs who can do a newies set anymore. I'm not even sure there are any that can sustain a newies set. None. Not even Butch. I've not heard Butch DJ for maybe 2 months, how many tunes will he play tomorrow night at the 100 Club that we have not heard before? A couple? None? How many classics will he play? Mostly? Classics as in we all know the words, know the tune, love it already? They could be one offs, or classics he's made classics, but they are still classics, in our secret little world underneath Oxford Street.

When was the last time there was a DJ who could play new tunes of the quality that Sam mentions in his article from 30 years ago, every month pulling stuff like out that to fill his set with tunes that no one has heard before? In this day and age of the internet and the combined knowledge of the world at their keyboards, I'd say it was a good 10 years ago? Before the internet had taken off?

I remember when "Deepfunk" was at it's most exciting, 1999-2002, the new tunes we got to hear every week was amazing, exciting, a true newies scene. That was probably the last newies scene based on vintage music.

But newies as a genre? As a label to put on a night? No, I think it's dead.

But that doesn't mean that the attitude that is behind the "newies or nothing" concept is dead. It's just represented now by DJs with taste, enthusiasm, wit and guile who a clever with their selection and know how to keep parties exciting, interesting and of value to people who enjoy celebrating this forgotten genius by dancing all night to it.

I personally think there are only a small handful of DJs on the scene today who can do that, and do it very well.

But 'newies' and 'oldies' as a tag to put on nights and parties is, I believe, irrelevant and outdated. There are a few DJs with the attitude to push the occasional new discovery of quality that turns up, and who can keep things interesting, but they are not newies DJs, they are just good DJs.

Even the phrases that are often used such as "forward thinking" or "progressive" means to leave behind and to forget. Which is wrong, there are no DJs, and no dancers or collector who want to forget the great and the worthy. It's an irrelevant tag, IMO. What these tags really say is "You lot are crap and you bore us, we're cooler, we've got better taste, and we're better". Why not just say that? It's what you are really saying, and you might be right.

It would be a swerve ball if Ian Levine really does have a box of 398 great and unknown northern soul monsters that he boasts of having but won't play to anyone, then I am wrong. I don't think I am though.

Bloody hell James.......a great thought provoking post & one that challenges my thinking on this subject, i think your right in what your saying though, again enjoyed reading your thoughts on this...........

Russ

[Guest bazabod_downunder]

Top post James, right on the nail.....although I'm sure someone will disagree.

KTF

Baz

I've had a few thoughts on this recently.

Northern Soul is a taste. A broad church of tastes. It's not a genre of music.

Funk, whether the commercial disco stuff that Sam takes about in that article or funk as we now know it is a genre. A type of music. Hip Hop, 50s RnB, 60s detroit soul are genres of music.

A taste, such as northern soul, or deepfunk, or mod can include different genres or types of music.

But newies and oldies are neither of these things. They are an attitude.

I think the pigeon holing of events as 'newies' or 'oldies' is now irrelevant.

Each year there are fewer 'new tunes' to be discovered, especially of quality. The 'newies only brigade' still beat the newies drum though, and use the term 'oldie' almost as an insult, a term of derision. But the 'newies' DJs always play 'oldies' in their sets, only they call them "forgotten oldies". Which is an insult and a put down to the oldies brigade, like saying "we know better than you, if we play an oldie it's because we are quicker witted and have better knowledge". Which they might be. Or they might not be, they could be playing crap.

At the same time the 'oldies forever' lot shout insults of disco or funk at the newies DJs, while they themselves play disco and funk records, but they are oldies so that is ok, they were played at Wigan. KTF and all that.

I think the reality is that there are very few DJs who can do a newies set anymore. I'm not even sure there are any that can sustain a newies set. None. Not even Butch. I've not heard Butch DJ for maybe 2 months, how many tunes will he play tomorrow night at the 100 Club that we have not heard before? A couple? None? How many classics will he play? Mostly? Classics as in we all know the words, know the tune, love it already? They could be one offs, or classics he's made classics, but they are still classics, in our secret little world underneath Oxford Street.

When was the last time there was a DJ who could play new tunes of the quality that Sam mentions in his article from 30 years ago, every month pulling stuff like out that to fill his set with tunes that no one has heard before? In this day and age of the internet and the combined knowledge of the world at their keyboards, I'd say it was a good 10 years ago? Before the internet had taken off?

I remember when "Deepfunk" was at it's most exciting, 1999-2002, the new tunes we got to hear every week was amazing, exciting, a true newies scene. That was probably the last newies scene based on vintage music.

But newies as a genre? As a label to put on a night? No, I think it's dead.

But that doesn't mean that the attitude that is behind the "newies or nothing" concept is dead. It's just represented now by DJs with taste, enthusiasm, wit and guile who a clever with their selection and know how to keep parties exciting, interesting and of value to people who enjoy celebrating this forgotten genius by dancing all night to it.

I personally think there are only a small handful of DJs on the scene today who can do that, and do it very well.

But 'newies' and 'oldies' as a tag to put on nights and parties is, I believe, irrelevant and outdated. There are a few DJs with the attitude to push the occasional new discovery of quality that turns up, and who can keep things interesting, but they are not newies DJs, they are just good DJs.

Even the phrases that are often used such as "forward thinking" or "progressive" means to leave behind and to forget. Which is wrong, there are no DJs, and no dancers or collector who want to forget the great and the worthy. It's an irrelevant tag, IMO. What these tags really say is "You lot are crap and you bore us, we're cooler, we've got better taste, and we're better". Why not just say that? It's what you are really saying, and you might be right.

It would be a swerve ball if Ian Levine really does have a box of 398 great and unknown northern soul monsters that he boasts of having but won't play to anyone, then I am wrong. I don't think I am though.

[burt weedon]

I don't know why you included "smilie" cos you're spot on, aren't you.

From a quick google it appears to have started September '75. I think up until then there wasn't an "oldies" thing. Sure there were local clubs where they may have played EMIs of current biggies or latest bootlegs but not really oldies as we have now. And of course there were always locals who had current nighter 45s as well. Not just the Wigan and Mecca jocks.

ROD

hi guys.remember this startin well, mecca against wigan etc.i used to travell all round the country 2 diifo venues,sumbody ses thats newies ur dancin 2 or thats oldies ur dancin 2.dohh..well there both from the 60,s,please explain,(soul sam)..long lecture then the arrival of the disco pop..and still raves on...boring..

[Steve G]

I don't know why you included "smilie" cos you're spot on, aren't you.

From a quick google it appears to have started September '75. I think up until then there wasn't an "oldies" thing. Sure there were local clubs where they may have played EMIs of current biggies or latest bootlegs but not really oldies as we have now. And of course there were always locals who had current nighter 45s as well. Not just the Wigan and Mecca jocks.

ROD

I only put the smilie on Rod because I know there are those on here that think Mr M's was the best thing to happen at Wigan since they invented mothballs, sorry mint balls. Me I'd have put a wedge in the back door, announced over the mike that you've got 2 minutes to get back in the main room and then set the bloody room on fire There's another smilie just in case anyone things I'd support arson.....but yes I am afraid I do think that's where it all started.

I also like oldies, as Sean says bedrock etc. just not all the time.....Steve

Edited May 17, 2009 by Steve G

[Simon M]

I also like oldies, as Sean says bedrock etc. just not all the time.....Steve

[Chalky]

I've had a few thoughts on this recently.

Northern Soul is a taste. A broad church of tastes. It's not a genre of music.

Funk, whether the commercial disco stuff that Sam takes about in that article or funk as we now know it is a genre. A type of music. Hip Hop, 50s RnB, 60s detroit soul are genres of music.

A taste, such as northern soul, or deepfunk, or mod can include different genres or types of music.

But newies and oldies are neither of these things. They are an attitude.

I think the pigeon holing of events as 'newies' or 'oldies' is now irrelevant.

Each year there are fewer 'new tunes' to be discovered, especially of quality. The 'newies only brigade' still beat the newies drum though, and use the term 'oldie' almost as an insult, a term of derision. But the 'newies' DJs always play 'oldies' in their sets, only they call them "forgotten oldies". Which is an insult and a put down to the oldies brigade, like saying "we know better than you, if we play an oldie it's because we are quicker witted and have better knowledge". Which they might be. Or they might not be, they could be playing crap.

At the same time the 'oldies forever' lot shout insults of disco or funk at the newies DJs, while they themselves play disco and funk records, but they are oldies so that is ok, they were played at Wigan. KTF and all that.

I think the reality is that there are very few DJs who can do a newies set anymore. I'm not even sure there are any that can sustain a newies set. None. Not even Butch. I've not heard Butch DJ for maybe 2 months, how many tunes will he play tomorrow night at the 100 Club that we have not heard before? A couple? None? How many classics will he play? Mostly? Classics as in we all know the words, know the tune, love it already? They could be one offs, or classics he's made classics, but they are still classics, in our secret little world underneath Oxford Street.

When was the last time there was a DJ who could play new tunes of the quality that Sam mentions in his article from 30 years ago, every month pulling stuff like out that to fill his set with tunes that no one has heard before? In this day and age of the internet and the combined knowledge of the world at their keyboards, I'd say it was a good 10 years ago? Before the internet had taken off? Old and new can exists side by side if the set is well constructed and thought out.

I remember when "Deepfunk" was at it's most exciting, 1999-2002, the new tunes we got to hear every week was amazing, exciting, a true newies scene. That was probably the last newies scene based on vintage music.

But newies as a genre? As a label to put on a night? No, I think it's dead.

But that doesn't mean that the attitude that is behind the "newies or nothing" concept is dead. It's just represented now by DJs with taste, enthusiasm, wit and guile who a clever with their selection and know how to keep parties exciting, interesting and of value to people who enjoy celebrating this forgotten genius by dancing all night to it.

I personally think there are only a small handful of DJs on the scene today who can do that, and do it very well.

But 'newies' and 'oldies' as a tag to put on nights and parties is, I believe, irrelevant and outdated. There are a few DJs with the attitude to push the occasional new discovery of quality that turns up, and who can keep things interesting, but they are not newies DJs, they are just good DJs.

Even the phrases that are often used such as "forward thinking" or "progressive" means to leave behind and to forget. Which is wrong, there are no DJs, and no dancers or collector who want to forget the great and the worthy. It's an irrelevant tag, IMO. What these tags really say is "You lot are crap and you bore us, we're cooler, we've got better taste, and we're better". Why not just say that? It's what you are really saying, and you might be right.

It would be a swerve ball if Ian Levine really does have a box of 398 great and unknown northern soul monsters that he boasts of having but won't play to anyone, then I am wrong. I don't think I am though.

oldies vs. newies part 157

Good post JT. So called "newies" DJ (is there such a thing these days?) have to play oldies as you rightly say there aren't the quantity of "new" 60's records today, hasn't been for a while. But there are still plenty of records that are forgotten, ignored, neglected, underplayed (or whatever term you wish to use) out there or ......that's where the knowledge of some DJ's/collectors comes to the fore. Even when a "new " record turns up it's very difficult (practically impossible sometimes) to "break" a record on todays scene if it is in the hands of just one maybe two dj's, especially with the scene being so regionalised today. There are still plenty of records unknown to many out there....remember not everyone was old enough to do the Torch, Wheel & Wigan and many had left the scene and missed out on the 80's early 90's when 100's of new records played to return in later years, there will be records from each era that are known only to those who were there. There will be records totally ignored simply because they aren't from the era of the DJ's youth?

There's very little tolerance today with new sounds, because they are so hard to break people are almost unwilling to accept them regardless how good they are for the simple reason of being unknown to them and because they rarely hear DJ's from outside their catchment area. Maybe it's an age thing and people just want to go out and live in the same comfort zone week in week out, just listen to records they are comfortable with from their youth.....what happened to the tolerance of their youth, the quest to seek out, listen to and dance to new records?

Oldies are the core of the scene in reality but why do venues have to play the same old same week in week out when there are so many records out there? It's like going to a "normal" nightclub and hearing the same top 40 for years Much of the problem lies with certain areas utilising the same dj's for each venue. I look at the events calendar on a regular basis and some areas very rarely have DJ's guesting from outside their particular area,....all this IMO leads to a stagnant standing still scene.

I don't think anyone insults "oldies" or the oldies brigade as you call them, some just have a preference to hear something different on their nights out.

Edited May 17, 2009 by chalky

[Steve G]

I also like oldies, as Sean says bedrock etc. just not all the time.....Steve

This seems confused Steve , are you saying that oldies are the bedrock ?

Sorry if this is confused teacherman, will try and do better

Just stating the obvious really. oldies are the bedrock of the scene - that's what the majority likes and it's like chalky says you have to mix in newer or lesser known stuff as and when you can. I'd always prefer to go to a venue where I don't hear 4 Tracks Like my love, Mel Britt, and Lou Pride etc. But I have these records in my collection in Somerset, they are great records, just tired of hearing them out.

[Ged Parker]

I recall in my early days on the scene often being asked if I prefered Newies or Oldies and that was back in 76 77. I didn't know the difference then and still am not sure I can define them adequately now. What I do know is that there is a commonly understood meaning for both and these meanings are really shorthand that most of us 'get'.

Now; just as in 1976; if you play me a tune I don't know even if it was massive at some point in the past its a new tune to me and I'll judge it on its merits. Equally when some one asks me to play some 'Oldies' I know what they mean even though I may have been playing what to my mind are oldies anyway.

To that degree the tags of Oldies and Newies are of some use though clearly they do not have any relationship to being either old or for that matter new in origin or in history on the scene.

I don't think anyone is dismissive as James suggests by using the term 'Oldies' and I never think I know better than anyone else. I may have different taste but it's just that different better to me of course but that doesn't make anyone elses opinion more or less valid than mine. I can't agree that we are saying "You lot are crap and you bore us, we're cooler, we've got better taste, and we're better". Well at least I'm not. Not in the least. Neither am I calling these people Dinosuars or Sheep

Chalky has hit on a very pertinent point about regionality of DJ's preventing even the best sounds breaking through. In the day when we all traveled to a big venue once a week / month we all picked up on sounds at similar time and all the 'big' DJ's managed the demand for sounds and ensured this demand was satisfied. Often this was done by using acetates which would be unacceptable to many now and even if it was acceptable the competition between DJ's and venues would stop this working anything like it back in the day.

The scene is still as divided as it ever was just now along different lines. Some of us want to hear the comfortable familiar sounds we can play at home on a comp CD some of us want to hear the sounds we remember from way back but never hear out and about and others; me included; long to hear stuff that I've never heard before. I don't care if you call it a newie or an oldie as long as its good.

[Simon M]

Sorry if this is confused teacherman, will try and do better

Just stating the obvious really. oldies are the bedrock of the scene - that's what the majority likes and it's like chalky says you have to mix in newer or lesser known stuff as and when you can. I'd always prefer to go to a venue where I don't hear 4 Tracks Like my love, Mel Britt, and Lou Pride etc. But I have these records in my collection in Somerset, they are great records, just tired of hearing them out.

Well I think we need Hampsey back on this thread now Sir

ps.can you retire some more oldies to Somerset some day soon Steve

Edited May 17, 2009 by Simon M

[Steve G]

Well I think we need Hampsey back on this thread now Sir

ps.can you retire some more oldies to Somerset some day soon Steve

The cows in the next field are hearing some great tunes Simon......

[Simon M]

The cows in the next field are hearing some great tunes Simon......

I see with you its poor cows and JT its sheep . The strange world of Rare Soul

[Cunnie]

I see with you its poor cows and JT its sheep . The strange world of Rare Soul

Thought Gary L called you a sheep Simon

[Simon M]

Thought Gary L called you a sheep Simon

Did he hahaha when? where ?

[Russ Vickers]

oldies vs. newies part 157

Good post JT. So called "newies" DJ (is there such a thing these days?) have to play oldies as you rightly say there aren't the quantity of "new" 60's records today, hasn't been for a while. But there are still plenty of records that are forgotten, ignored, neglected, underplayed (or whatever term you wish to use) out there or ......that's where the knowledge of some DJ's/collectors comes to the fore. Even when a "new " record turns up it's very difficult (practically impossible sometimes) to "break" a record on todays scene if it is in the hands of just one maybe two dj's, especially with the scene being so regionalised today. There are still plenty of records unknown to many out there....remember not everyone was old enough to do the Torch, Wheel & Wigan and many had left the scene and missed out on the 80's early 90's when 100's of new records played to return in later years, there will be records from each era that are known only to those who were there. There will be records totally ignored simply because they aren't from the era of the DJ's youth?

There's very little tolerance today with new sounds, because they are so hard to break people are almost unwilling to accept them regardless how good they are for the simple reason of being unknown to them and because they rarely hear DJ's from outside their catchment area. Maybe it's an age thing and people just want to go out and live in the same comfort zone week in week out, just listen to records they are comfortable with from their youth.....what happened to the tolerance of their youth, the quest to seek out, listen to and dance to new records?

Oldies are the core of the scene in reality but why do venues have to play the same old same week in week out when there are so many records out there? It's like going to a "normal" nightclub and hearing the same top 40 for years Much of the problem lies with certain areas utilising the same dj's for each venue. I look at the events calendar on a regular basis and some areas very rarely have DJ's guesting from outside their particular area,....all this IMO leads to a stagnant standing still scene.

I don't think anyone insults "oldies" or the oldies brigade as you call them, some just have a preference to hear something different on their nights out.

.....very well put & I'm in full agreement.

Russ

[Guest KEN-SOUL]

Sorry if this is confused teacherman, will try and do better

I'd always prefer to go to a venue where I don't hear 4 Tracks Like my love, Mel Britt, and Lou Pride etc. But I have these records in my collection in Somerset, they are great records, just tired of hearing them out.

This is what gets me as well. I can name dozens of underplayed and rare records WHICH I HEARD RARELY BACK THEN, AND DON'T HEAR AT ALL NOW. WHERE ARE ALL THOSE RECORDS NOW? AND WHY WERE WE ROBBED OF HEARING THEM DOWN THE YEARS?

[Tomangoes]

I've had a few thoughts on this recently.

Northern Soul is a taste. A broad church of tastes. It's not a genre of music.

Funk, whether the commercial disco stuff that Sam takes about in that article or funk as we now know it is a genre. A type of music. Hip Hop, 50s RnB, 60s detroit soul are genres of music.

A taste, such as northern soul, or deepfunk, or mod can include different genres or types of music.

But newies and oldies are neither of these things. They are an attitude.

I think the pigeon holing of events as 'newies' or 'oldies' is now irrelevant.

Each year there are fewer 'new tunes' to be discovered, especially of quality. The 'newies only brigade' still beat the newies drum though, and use the term 'oldie' almost as an insult, a term of derision. But the 'newies' DJs always play 'oldies' in their sets, only they call them "forgotten oldies". Which is an insult and a put down to the oldies brigade, like saying "we know better than you, if we play an oldie it's because we are quicker witted and have better knowledge". Which they might be. Or they might not be, they could be playing crap.

At the same time the 'oldies forever' lot shout insults of disco or funk at the newies DJs, while they themselves play disco and funk records, but they are oldies so that is ok, they were played at Wigan. KTF and all that.

I think the reality is that there are very few DJs who can do a newies set anymore. I'm not even sure there are any that can sustain a newies set. None. Not even Butch. I've not heard Butch DJ for maybe 2 months, how many tunes will he play tomorrow night at the 100 Club that we have not heard before? A couple? None? How many classics will he play? Mostly? Classics as in we all know the words, know the tune, love it already? They could be one offs, or classics he's made classics, but they are still classics, in our secret little world underneath Oxford Street.

When was the last time there was a DJ who could play new tunes of the quality that Sam mentions in his article from 30 years ago, every month pulling stuff like out that to fill his set with tunes that no one has heard before? In this day and age of the internet and the combined knowledge of the world at their keyboards, I'd say it was a good 10 years ago? Before the internet had taken off?

I remember when "Deepfunk" was at it's most exciting, 1999-2002, the new tunes we got to hear every week was amazing, exciting, a true newies scene. That was probably the last newies scene based on vintage music.

But newies as a genre? As a label to put on a night? No, I think it's dead.

But that doesn't mean that the attitude that is behind the "newies or nothing" concept is dead. It's just represented now by DJs with taste, enthusiasm, wit and guile who a clever with their selection and know how to keep parties exciting, interesting and of value to people who enjoy celebrating this forgotten genius by dancing all night to it.

I personally think there are only a small handful of DJs on the scene today who can do that, and do it very well.

But 'newies' and 'oldies' as a tag to put on nights and parties is, I believe, irrelevant and outdated. There are a few DJs with the attitude to push the occasional new discovery of quality that turns up, and who can keep things interesting, but they are not newies DJs, they are just good DJs.

Even the phrases that are often used such as "forward thinking" or "progressive" means to leave behind and to forget. Which is wrong, there are no DJs, and no dancers or collector who want to forget the great and the worthy. It's an irrelevant tag, IMO. What these tags really say is "You lot are crap and you bore us, we're cooler, we've got better taste, and we're better". Why not just say that? It's what you are really saying, and you might be right.

It would be a swerve ball if Ian Levine really does have a box of 398 great and unknown northern soul monsters that he boasts of having but won't play to anyone, then I am wrong. I don't think I am though.

NOT SURE ABOUT NOT BEING A GENRE.

LORD GODIN MOST CERTAINLY THOUGHT IT WAS............

Ed

Edited May 17, 2009 by tomangoes

[spirit]

I don't think anyone insults "oldies" or the oldies brigade as you call them, some just have a preference to hear something different on their nights out.

Exactly the point. It's not about 'newies' vs. 'oldies' for me or most of the people I talk to on this subject. It's about variety vs. lack of variety (looked at from 'our' point of view).

I am but an ignorant novice on this scene, and have no interest or knowledge in whether sounds are well-established or recently-popularised. Only my feet give me an indication of what is cool.

But I can tell when I've heard a record a zillion times in the last year, because my heart doesn't lift as much as that record deserves. The adrenalin is tempered by jadedness.

I went to a cracking local oldies night on Saturday. Fantastic, dynamic atmosphere and some brilliant records individually, but if I want to hear a significantly different mix of records next week (and the week after that), I will have to drive a long way, and God knows I'm tired enough with the dancing.

[Guest BigPaul]

Exactly the point. It's not about 'newies' vs. 'oldies' for me or most of the people I talk to on this subject. It's about variety vs. lack of variety (looked at from 'our' point of view).

I am but an ignorant novice on this scene, and have no interest or knowledge in whether sounds are well-established or recently-popularised. Only my feet give me an indication of what is cool.

But I can tell when I've heard a record a zillion times in the last year, because my heart doesn't lift as much as that record deserves. The adrenalin is tempered by jadedness.

I went to a cracking local oldies night on Saturday. Fantastic, dynamic atmosphere and some brilliant records individually, but if I want to hear a significantly different mix of records next week (and the week after that), I will have to drive a long way, and God knows I'm tired enough with the dancing.

Not for one minute do i believe you only went to one event on Saturday

[Steve L]

Not for one minute do i believe you only went to one event on Saturday

Stop arseing about on my thread I'm trying to stimulate some intellectual debate here

Edited May 18, 2009 by Life O' Reilly