Wigan Casino - Its Influence, Its Legacy... A Panel Event at 'Museum of Wigan Life'

that will be interesting. thanks for the heads up.

also the date is a poignant 

Thanks Ken, my day job and passion in one event! Hope you can make it

Will see if I can get over

Ticket booked , love a bit of nostalgia, amazing really while it was running the Council and the notorious local constabulary only wanted to get rid of the WC , I'm surprised that the local tourist information board hasn't pushed the council into rebuilding the place , just a thought lol .

Ticket booked. The write up mentioned a ‘soul do’ up the road later that night but no place or location was mentioned, or did I miss it?

Edit; just looked in the Events Guide and it’s probably at the Masonic Hall in Pemberton.

Hi Catsprint, yes it is the Masonic at Pemberton, and thanks for booking

Ticket booked  

Fabulous, thanks Chalky

Just a quick heads up, we are a small museum so it will be a nice intimate event of 60 like minded souls. Over 40 of those seats have already gone, so if you fancy it, I would book asap. 

Thanks so much everyone

Two tickets booked, looks like a real interesting event!!!

Sounds great, booked a couple of tickets.

Are they going to stream it?

Thanks everyone, will definitely enquire about recording it. Leave it with me x

Try https://www.soul-source.co.uk/gallery/category/23-1970s-soul/

A few photos taken in Wigan recently. The shopping centre built on the Casino site and the display by the Casino Cafe.

Be kind people, that was me

The exhibition covers all types of local music, and it's on until early next year so if you're passing, pop in x

That's all the tickets booked, thanks so much everyone

I'll start a reserve list, so if you've missed out but fancy it, drop me a pm and I'll add your name. By the same token, if you have a ticket but nearer the time find you can't make it, please do let me know

This is going to be great event, just seen the post, would love to attend 

please put me on the reserve list Joan.

 Thanks 

i have this on my wall. the only other one i know of ( different colour) belongs to Andrew @Lovemusic

I have an e ticket for this event but I am now unable to attend, if anyone is interested the first person to get in touch can have it.

Unfortunately I missed it, how was it?

A great afternoon and insight on the soundtrack and memories  for a lot of our lives 

my name was carved behind that piano? spent loads of time there and somebody opened the curtain  op the the curtain....

guess who LEVINE

I thought this was superb ,many thanks Joan 

Tim's "Jesus Christ,is this possible" quote says it all.. game,set and match! 

Thanks for the post Joan, really enjoyed that,loved the storys & memories, Cheers guys.

Thank you for the ‘link’ I had Covid at the time so couldn’t go. Some good stories and memories told.

Great video, loved it. Always learn something more about this venue when you have stuff like this put on.  One thing that did strike a note with me, something that Tim said.

I started secondry school the year Wigan closed, given my age I can't really dispute this, and can honestly say I've never danced to it, in fact, I may only have ever heard it played at the 100 club, once!   But I love Romance Watson! 

22 hours ago, Jumpinjoan said:

Sorry for the late reply everyone, not been too good. 

Here is the link to the panel event. The audience questions will be uploaded soon, will post here when they're up x

 

Thanks for posting this Joan , and so sorry I missed the event . You have worked your socks off to get all of this done, so well done you . 
Hope you get better soon and pass on my regards to the old man . 

Steve & Shila . 

This is great.    This is what the BBC should be doing when they make a programme about Northern Soul!

A programme by Northern Soul fans, for people who are into Northern Soul!   

The programmes the BBC and others make about Northern Soul are usually all aimed at people who know little or nothing about it! 

All involved in this did a great job. 

Such a lot of the guest speakers view's and opinions I share with!  I have never forgotten those great memorable times at the Casino allnighters. 

Everybody sees the scene from their own point of view, and there is a lot of rewriting history, so it's good to hear from people who know how it really was, and lived the life style!

3 hours ago, Chalky said:

 it's the same records as 20 years ago, its boring and like watching an episode of top of the pops for 40 years or so.

If there were lots of great records to play, they would be getting played!

There is a limited number of great records and once you know them all you can't have anymore! 

The scene is fresh to newcomers who have a lot of tunes to learn and appreciate.

It's all a matter of what you know or don't know, as to whether venues are boring or not!  

Surely thats ,wrong how much you spend Chalky?? Me and you probably do but that doesn't make wigan the b all and end all of northern surely, I was too young for the wheel and torch but did blue rooms mecca wigan etc and a varied epitome of records were played as you know cost in them days was miniscule, top dollar then was 20 -35 max ,I purchased with a friend big boys at the time chapter five 25,cobblestone 15,precissions 20,stemmons express 25 the list endless every week as it still is a hunt for tunes I had ,didn't have or un heard of stuffwhich I prefer anyway can't wait for wigan 60 ,wheelchair parade ,Ps well done in benalmadena too

5 hours ago, Chalky said:

That was exactly what my question about The Casino being detrimental to the scene in the years that followed especially today.  The constant looking back and the same old same being the musical focus for the vast majority of venues has to have a detrimental effect.  I known for a fact it is driving people away, not just the mainstream but the so called upfront and crossover venues, it's the same records as 20 years ago, its boring and like watching an episode of top of the pops for 40 years or so.

Spot on!

5 hours ago, Chalky said:

That was exactly what my question about The Casino being detrimental to the scene in the years that followed especially today.  The constant looking back and the same old same being the musical focus for the vast majority of venues has to have a detrimental effect.  I known for a fact it is driving people away, not just the mainstream but the so called upfront and crossover venues, it's the same records as 20 years ago, its boring and like watching an episode of top of the pops for 40 years or so.

My example is always this Chalky........I'm a Man Utd fan, but I don't watch the old games/teams, I follow what's happening now, and by Christ if there were ever a better excuse for the former than current form eh?

My other way of looking at it, is that it becomes the NS equivalent of an Elvis convention!

On this subject, and spoken as someone who wasn't there......surely one of the worst things that ever happened at the Casino was the introduction of the Oldies All Niter wasn't it?  The rot sets in from there I reckon.

Yawnsville......

Cheers,

Mark R

1 hour ago, Mark R said:

......surely one of the worst things that ever happened at the Casino was the introduction of the Oldies All Niter wasn't it?  The rot sets in from there I reckon.

Yawnsville......

 

Cheers,

Mark R

Agreed Mark. "Wigan Oldies nighters".  

It's one thing that the Casino had an oldies nighter back then, up until it's closure, as even some of the " oldies" were not that old at the time.

But for so called DJs to still play those records is at best plain lazy and very unimaginative considering the vast amount of choice of under played and forgotten tunes available.

The Idea that Wigan Casino was,/is detrimental to the scene seems a bit odd  to me the place was of its time and ran its course  Peoples narrow attitudes and a desire to re-live and re-invent their youth backed up by money grabbing promoters that will exploit the nostalgia feeding frenzy  is definitely more detrimental. 

I don't believe any club or venue can be detrimental to any scene. Surely it's down to the DJs to educate the crowd and not allow the crowd to influence them into going in what may be considered the wrong direction. 

It just takes those playing the records to believe in what they play and hopefully take the crowd with them.

That's what use to happen when I started attending nighters and soul nights.

7 minutes ago, RobR said:

I don't believe any club or venue can be detrimental to any scene. Surely it's down to the DJs to educate the crowd and not allow the crowd to influence them into going in what may be considered the wrong direction. 

It just takes those playing the records to believe in what they play and hopefully take the crowd with them.

That's what use to happen when I started attending nighters and soul nights.

Well, it CAN be can't it, whether you think it was is a matter of opinion.  The example I gave of the introduction of the Oldies All Nighter could be argued to have been a little divisive couldn't it and, whilst I 100% agree with what you say about DJ's, that was a venue policy.  So IF that was the start of preservation rather than progression then surely that could be traced as detriment to the scene we have now?  Like I say, you may disagree, but it IS an example of how a venue and it's policies could contribute in a negative way.

Cheers,

Mark R

10 hours ago, Mark R said:

Well, it CAN be can't it, whether you think it was is a matter of opinion.  The example I gave of the introduction of the Oldies All Nighter could be argued to have been a little divisive couldn't it and, whilst I 100% agree with what you say about DJ's, that was a venue policy.  So IF that was the start of preservation rather than progression then surely that could be traced as detriment to the scene we have now?  Like I say, you may disagree, but it IS an example of how a venue and it's policies could contribute in a negative way.

 

Cheers,

Mark R

Absolutely Mark. I did go to Wigan Casino and remember thinking when they started the oldies all nighters, why would I go all that way to listen to oldies all night? A lot of "oldies" were played on Saturday nights anyway plus you had Mr M's for those that wanted just oldies. In hindsight I actually think it was started as a money spinner, but it did ultimately have a detrimental effect on attendance on the Saturdays. Not the only reason attendances wained, but one of them. 

14 hours ago, Paul-s said:

I find that statement totally baffling and to my humble ears totally misguided.

DJ's often seem very apathetic in terms of leaving the comfort of their hot box, chancing their arm with a lesser known, or very often have no idea of the massive breadth of whats not played/underplayed.

 

I was addressing the point that venues are boring and playing the same records.

People keep saying we should be playing all these other records, but what are these other great records that nobody knows yet?

I am all for playing different records but most of these different records are known and a lot have been played from time to time so they are going to be boring to somebody!

Boxes have been sifted and both sides of records played for many decades, the chances of finding  great new records that nobody knows are getting slim!

As I said I am all for playing different records at venues, but we can't expect the 1970's/80's level of finds and discoveries! 

From experience I can say that there are deejays with very substantial collections playing a lot of regularly played stuff played also by other deejays with similarly very substantial collections. This is not just a Wigan 50 year anniversary issue. It might be promoters telling them what to play, it might be punters voting with their feet, a combination of these, or just fear of pushing the envelope, but it does seem a waste and it seems to be very far from the original spirit of the scene.

I was too young to attend the Casino but I know from playlists and recordings that a lot of records played there in later years by e.g. Richard S and Gary R have not been revived except maybe by a few non-headliner deejays given afternoon or early doors slots and therefore free to be more adventurous.

Most people seem to assume that punters attending evening events want to hear familiar sounds, and I was told by a deejay earlier this year that he is not "allowed" to play some of his afternoon spins during evenings because the audience won't let him.

There is clearly a market for nostalgia and just as in whatever remains of the jazz-funk scene there are people of a certain age who want to relive their past, and promoters naturally cater to them. As we all get older it's no surprise that preservation takes over progression for some. And if we judge "success" as a full dancefloor, then many oldies deejays are very successful.

However I love hearing new, unfamiliar and forgotten sounds played out as it is clear that the surface is barely being scratched in many cases. Maybe "success" should be measured by how many people stay in the room, rather than only on the dancefloor - if the music is crap then punters will walk, especially at a multi-room event, whereas chin-stroking and liquid consuming can be done while listening to what is played. And a lot of people don't seem to appreciate just how fresh the familiar records can sound in the middle of unfamiliar sounds.

There are some promoters who take care to provide space for rare and underplayed sounds at multi-room events, and maybe the only "criticism" of them I can reasonably offer is that this aspect could be emphasised more strongly. Otherwise the best way to hear less familiar sounds is to turn up early and support those spinners who are not necessarily headlining but who can be relied on to dig deeper and play the underplayed. You'll quickly figure out who is worth following and who is just playing obscurities for the sake of it without any sort of quality control, which is a different problem altogether but one that can also reduce attendance at events.

Another possibility would be to relax the OVO rule as this places in my view unreasonable limits on what can be played, prioritises format over music quality, and feeds the chequebook deejay phenomenon that many here highlight as a big problem. That's going to be controversial but it should be possible to provide space for non-OVO content without compromising OVO policy in e.g. the main room of a multi-room event.

2 hours ago, Solidsoul said:

I was addressing the point that venues are boring and playing the same records.

People keep saying we should be playing all these other records, but what are these other great records that nobody knows yet?

I am all for playing different records but most of these different records are known and a lot have been played from time to time so they are going to be boring to somebody!

Boxes have been sifted and both sides of records played for many decades, the chances of finding  great new records that nobody knows are getting slim!

As I said I am all for playing different records at venues, but we can't expect the 1970's/80's level of finds and discoveries! 

Installing means of playing vault finds other than on vinyl would be a start.......the scene shoots itself in the foot taking it's sensibilities (Ii.e. OVO) too far doesn't it?

Cheers,

Mark R

While I agree that the Oldies All nighters   had a detrimental affect on the Saturday ,and therefore the newer 60s discoveries  scene , especially the night after , but also , lots of people got into the habit of  attending on a monthly basis instead of weekly , specifically for the First Friday in the month .                                                                                                                                                       The thing about those Oldies all nighters  though was that after the first couple , the place was absolutely bursting at the seams and the atmosphere was out of this world , by this time , people were getting in through the roof , through back doors , fire exits , and it felt like they let in as many as turned up at the door .( as the rumors of closures grew over time , maybe it was a matter of make as much as possible before the whole thing ends) in hindsight this was probably a disaster waiting to happen , but at the time , it was a hell of a blow out !                                                                                                                                                                          

19 minutes ago, Carty said:

While I agree that the Oldies All nighters   had a detrimental affect on the Saturday ,and therefore the newer 60s discoveries  scene , especially the night after , but also , lots of people got into the habit of  attending on a monthly basis instead of weekly , specifically for the First Friday in the month .                                                                                                                                                       The thing about those Oldies all nighters  though was that after the first couple , the place was absolutely bursting at the seams and the atmosphere was out of this world , by this time , people were getting in through the roof , through back doors , fire exits , and it felt like they let in as many as turned up at the door .( as the rumors of closures grew over time , maybe it was a matter of make as much as possible before the whole thing ends) in hindsight this was probably a disaster waiting to happen , but at the time , it was a hell of a blow out !                                                                                                                                                                          

But it could be that very few of these people making it "burst at the seems" were the folk who the longevity of the scene was going to depend on. So, great for the time and for those who now sit and reminisce about WC, but not so great in the long run for those still around into the 80's and beyond.

But of course, it's hard to resist that short term success when there's a great atmosphere available for the punters and lots of money to be made by the owners/promoter's.

I don't know what's right, but I enjoy the conjecture and opinions!!

Cheers,

Mark R

Mark,

Maybe there is no right or wrong to the debate, just a load of opinions based on what we witnessed or thought about what evolved or didn't evolve.

Could it be said that more and more events opening up alternative rooms to the main room also played it's part in diluting the music played as there was always an option to not hear new sounds or styles.

Personally I preferred the one room but all genres played together, it worked for me and certainly broadened my tastes.

Cheers

Rob

35 minutes ago, Robr said:

Mark,

Maybe there is no right or wrong to the debate, just a load of opinions based on what we witnessed or thought about what evolved or didn't evolve.

Could it be said that more and more events opening up alternative rooms to the main room also played it's part in diluting the music played as there was always an option to not hear new sounds or styles.

Personally I preferred the one room but all genres played together, it worked for me and certainly broadened my tastes.

Cheers

Rob

Oh I agree............relative to the example I gave, M's vs Main Room is just an extension of the normal night vs OAN thing for me.

I think some of us with broad taste would have just liked to have seen a "soul scene" develop......not a "northern soul scene" or a "modern soul scene" etc.  In fact, it's the very point of how I perceive it was vs how it is now vs how I think it could have developed which motivates me to get involved in these conversations about somewhere I didn't go!!

RS was playing 60's alongside new releases back at the end of the Casino, so with the odd exception it always feels to me like we've actually gone backwards.  Sure in the 80's it carried on at some venues (in one room I mean - Rotherham/Stafford), but others concentrated on traditional sounds/oldies (Hinckley) and now it rarely happens to hear a mix in one room..........not exactly progress that? 

Cheers,

Mark R

15 hours ago, Robr said:

I don't believe any club or venue can be detrimental to any scene. Surely it's down to the DJs to educate the crowd and not allow the crowd to influence them into going in what may be considered the wrong direction. 

It just takes those playing the records to believe in what they play and hopefully take the crowd with them.

That's what use to happen when I started attending nighters and soul nights.

I’m not saying for a minute the venue itself is detrimental. It is the constant fixation of a pretty narrow selection of records, week in week out that is detrimental. 
Would you watch top of the pops from 1978 on rewind for 50 years?

There's a clip on the original documentary, interviewing Dave Withers. He pondered what he would do if the casino closed? He said it would be instant nostalgia and would be like spending the rest of your life constantly looking back !

On the positive side, SOME of the events I still do attend play such a diverse selection of great SOUL records like never before. They may not be classed as northern or modern but most are soul in one form or another.

In my experience these venues do tend to be in back street clubs or pubs and are quite often held on a Sunday with the local collectors free to play what they think would be good to hear.

Constantly hear records I have never come across before.

Cheers

Rob

On 17/10/2023 at 13:09, Mark R said:

I was too young for the Casino, would of course loved to have gone, and do soak the history of it up like a sponge, as I do for the UK soul scene in general plus of course the US scene of the 70's/80's: black music/club history.  But in truth from the turn of the year I was dreading September 2023 and all the BS surrounding the 50th Anniversary of WC.  Hanging on to the past is no good for any scene and indeed any individual IMHO............but a nod to it occasionally is fine..........and quite naturally, we ALL do it.  Just not to the point where an obsession with the the past hinders the (and our own!) musical future!!

These seminars/videos were good.  Much of it resonated with me in general, away from the specifics I can't comment on about WC, and Tim A was bang on..............to paraphrase him I would sum up by saying that some people know the price of everything, yet the value of nothing, when it comes to records!

It's particularly nice to hear GR get a voice in it.  I would say Gary's records from the Stafford era are amongst my best musical memories of that period (Oracles/Porgy & The Monarchs/Bobby Valentin/Gasoline Powered Clock/Little Stanley....on it goes).  Great to get his views.

A couple of things I thought were contradictory but I would have to watch again to remind myself which aspects.  But it's just opinions isn't it?

One observation though: when complaining about the way the BBC portray the NS (both on the videos and folk subsequently on here) I can't help but feel the BBC's interest probably wasn't by chance.  If you ponder that whilst considering the fact that we all know they won't portray it well, I think the reason for their involvement becomes clear and explains why we'll probably see further celebrations going forward, rather than letting it lie.

 

Cheers,

Mark R

Hi Mark. 

I was lucky enough to go to Wigan a few times from the age of 15 lol. But agree with you on many points on this.   I enjoyed the oldies niters for the buzz and as a youngster the dancersand clappingetc , but also enjoyed the Saturday niters for hearing new sounds especially records from Gary Rushbrooke and newer records from Richard although it looked so empty. 

When you mentioned what records Gary Rushbrooke did for you I totally agree especially with the Vondells, Ree Flores, Royal Esquires, Tommy Dodson ,Tee Fletcher , Embers crazy about you baby with so so so many more.  Not heard  gasoline powered clock for ages was it covered up as Lord Sitar and the Baltimore Marching Band?

Mick

On 17/10/2023 at 19:07, Paul-s said:

I find that statement totally baffling and to my humble ears totally misguided.

DJ's often seem very apathetic in terms of leaving the comfort of their hot box, chancing their arm with a lesser known, or very often have no idea of the massive breadth of whats not played/underplayed.

A lot of this might be the result of the demise of record bars at events and the hours we spent listening to stuff we didn't know, searching for stuff we didn't know existed as well as those wants,  listening to both sides, and talking records and exchanging stuff to take home and sift through, returning it at a later date on trust. Chalky is spot on on this.

I think it’s a case of one up man ship from the DJs to out do the other DJs ,a fear of emptying the dance floor from both the promotors and DJs in the bigger venues ,all records were new once ,I’ve seen the floor empty at The Mecca and Wigan ,you just need to have faith in some sounds .

On 18/10/2023 at 18:35, mick said:

Hi Mark. 

I was lucky enough to go to Wigan a few times from the age of 15 lol. But agree with you on many points on this.   I enjoyed the oldies niters for the buzz and as a youngster the dancersand clappingetc , but also enjoyed the Saturday niters for hearing new sounds especially records from Gary Rushbrooke and newer records from Richard although it looked so empty. 

When you mentioned what records Gary Rushbrooke did for you I totally agree especially with the Vondells, Ree Flores, Royal Esquires, Tommy Dodson ,Tee Fletcher , Embers crazy about you baby with so so so many more.  Not heard  gasoline powered clock for ages was it covered up as Lord Sitar and the Baltimore Marching Band?

Mick

Hi Mick,

Hope all's well pal, it's been a while!

Your first paragraph is interesting...........not new news to me of course but it has prompted me to consider that people were already hanging onto the past even BEFORE WC closed!!  Back to the OAN vs normal niter and M's vs Main Room discussion..............it's like a hamster wheel!!!

And yes, of course, all those other GR records you mention....I did say "on it goes" when I listed them.  But yes, the ones you mention all big GR tunes, Vondells, Ree Flores & Tee Fletcher in particular resonate with me.

I think GPC was c/u as you stated...........Lord Sitar does ring bells!

Cheers,

Mark R

I think DJ’s get (are getting) a bad rap on these topics of late. No…I’m not a DJ, and don’t want to be a DJ.

In the majority of cases, many of the DJ’s play lists (I hear out) seem very mixed with new and old(er). From ‘younger’ DJ’s like Jordan to our ‘ faithful’ DJ’s, it all seems pretty good to me.

So where are those ‘lazy’ DJ’s everyone’s banging on about who play ‘same old, same old’- I’ve obviously missed them.