Miss Motown - Raynoma Gordy & Jack Gibson

Great article Graham.

However, I'd need some convincing that Berry Gordy acquired a copy via ebay .

Whilst it may be a personal move, he is not particularly known for his sentimental approach to the legacy of Motown Memorabilia.

1 hour ago, Owd Codger said:

Great article Graham.

However, I'd need some convincing that Berry Gordy acquired a copy via ebay .

Whilst it may be a personal move, he is not particularly known for his sentimental approach to the legacy of Motown Memorabilia.

 

 

 

Thanks & appreciate the ask. 

The Ebay Miss Motown 45  is "Supposed" (definition: generally assumed or believed to be the case, but not necessarily so). The reason I think so is that someone was bidding on the 45 with no limit, I accept lots have enough funds to do same but  Berry would clearly understand whom Miss Motown was. Everyone else hadn't a clue as to who Miss Motown was ? me included, as I bid on it.

Berry however also has the complete Motown 45 collection that he acquired some years ago from Reginald J. Bartlette and he has a number of others that also pick up other 45's that are missing as they turn up. That Miss Motown 45 is not just a Motown record it is a one off special, and neither Berry would have been aware of it until it came to life in 2017.  It is an assumption on my part based on the work we did to establish who is "Miss Motown" in that it fits together as what we found as detailed in the article, in demonstrating  from 1961-64 the growth of the Motown company and who was involved.

In Berry's Bio 1994 "To Be Loved: The Music, The Magic, The Memories Of Motown" he mentions Jack Gibson joining Motown (pages 133 & 134 &  pages 244-245) however very brief references. Jack Gibson was with Berry from 1961 to 1966 and he was a key to the growth of Motown but little mention of him, despite everyone at Motown, artists and all knew Jack Gibson very well. 

We may never know, it's likely but it's a quandary! 

If you haven't already you must  watch and listen carefully to the "Geraldo Youtube"  show, particularly Raynoma, it was from that show  to be able to go back through Ray's biography and there was Miss Motown.

Thanks Graham

I didn't know that Berry has such a collection. I am surprised but heartened to learn that. That fact makes it easy to believe that the above suggestion is  more likely.

Thanks again for the article.

22 hours ago, Owd Codger said:

Thanks Graham

I didn't know that Berry has such a collection. I am surprised but heartened to learn that. That fact makes it easy to believe that the above suggestion is  more likely.

Thanks again for the article.

Morning.

You got me thinking  concerning was it Berry Gordy that won the "Ebay Miss Motown" ? everything I mentioned is correct as regards  Berry's collection, however yesterday I went through all record sales. I also visited "Popsike" as I remember the Ebay Miss Motown record being sold  in 2015. My copy I got in 2017.

The 2015 ebay copy albeit near mint the label has a ring mark, my copy has no ring marks and is in mint condition.  Having then found  the Miss Motown record on Popsike the original 2015 sale was there and right below was another Miss Motown sale from 2019. The prices on both are detailed.  Then having a look at the 2nd sale copy, it was the 2015 Ebay copy with the black label ringmark.

We can finally confirm Berry was not the ebay buyer for that first copy.

Thanks for asking the question and it resolves that one. We may never know who the original buyer was.

Hello Graham

Thanks for your update. As I say, it warms my heart to know that Berry has a collection of Motown ( is there a cut off period I wonder?).

It amused me to think he  occasionally plays 45s from Ivy Jo, Stylists, Headliners, Naturals etc.  On a serious note, it would be fascinating to find out his in depth knowledge, interest, recollection of the 60s, 70s releases.

There is an perception that after 1967, his grasp on the day to day operation waned to a large degree. To what extent did he know of the releases by then?

On 04/11/2022 at 10:13, Owd Codger said:

Hello Graham

Thanks for your update. As I say, it warms my heart to know that Berry has a collection of Motown ( is there a cut off period I wonder?).

It amused me to think he  occasionally plays 45s from Ivy Jo, Stylists, Headliners, Naturals etc.  On a serious note, it would be fascinating to find out his in depth knowledge, interest, recollection of the 60s, 70s releases.

There is an perception that after 1967, his grasp on the day to day operation waned to a large degree. To what extent did he know of the releases by then?

 

 

I don't know if or not you have seen  a copy of Bartlettes  "Motown Master 1959-1989 Off The Record" (99 percent complete) issues and  not for sale  demo 45's etc (basically everything). Bartlette set about getting everything 12" masters etc. I have a good friend in Detroit and he worked in a 2nd  hand record store also in Detroit . He knows Bartlette & from memory Bartlett sold his collection to Berry in the early 2000's,   a couple of others used to pick up other Motown 45's from the record store for Berry.  Berry owns it and that's it, he dosen't need to do anything with it . Not aware he still receives any missing copies. No doubt he will have someone to look after things.

Interesting. Perhaps Berry, in older age, became more sentimental about his legacy...

Motown the Musical etc.

I recall receiving  some corrrspondence from Reg, I believe it was news if an International Motown Collectors Club.

Ii wrote to Richard Searling on CFOS with details and supplied my number for anybody who fancied joining. Richard read out the details, and told me to stand by for lots of calls.

I didn't receive one

Thanks for this information, Graham.  I always read and heard that Raynoma left Detroit in mid 1963 to set up The Jobete Music office in New York, and moved there (getting an apartment) then.  Yet you talked about her moving there in 1964 in several posts above.  Perhaps she kept a home in Detroit until early 1964, and commuted back and forth until then?  But the New York office's operations started in mid 1963.  So she must have been mostly in New York by that earlier time.  The New York office was closed down already by late summer , or, at the very latest, the very beginning of fall, 1964.

Raynoma was moved out of Detroit in 1963 I believe.

Raynoma forced Gordy into a marriage he clrearly didn't want.

Berry Gordy was involved in an affair with Margaret Norton. Raynoma tracked the couple to a bowling alley and produced a pistol ....and apparently Smokey intervened to prevent a very dangerous situation. Raynoma was quickly moved out, to New York.

2 hours ago, Robbk said:

Thanks for this information, Graham.  I always read and heard that Raynoma left Detroit in mid 1963 to set up The Jobete Music office in New York, and moved there (getting an apartment) then.  Yet you talked about her moving there in 1964 in several posts above.  Perhaps she kept a home in Detroit until early 1964, and commuted back and forth until then?  But the New York office's operations started in mid 1963.  So she must have been mostly in New York by that earlier time.  The New York office was closed down already by late summer , or, at the very latest, the very beginning of fall, 1964.

Thanks Robb

Yes she flew out to NY in 1963 ( no real date) to set up the office and everything else, it went on into 1964 (not a lot of detail and/or any dates) before the Mary Wells "My Guy" 45 bootlegs.

Barney Ales  with a few others was then sent over to close down the offices in 1964  (no formal dates that we know) after Berry sent for the FBI, it would have been sometime late summer? . There are  few if any  dates  for any or  all of this. Its difficult to make any suggestions of what happened when? We will never know, I do find it fascinating.  If you find anything please let me know.

4 hours ago, Owd Codger said:

Raynoma was moved out of Detroit in 1963 I believe.

Raynoma forced Gordy into a marriage he clrearly didn't want.

Berry Gordy was involved in an affair with Margaret Norton. Raynoma tracked the couple to a bowling alley and produced a pistol ....and apparently Smokey intervened to prevent a very dangerous situation. Raynoma was quickly moved out, to New York.

 

Yes.  That is what we all have known for a longlong time.  What I don't understand is  why Graham said above 3 times that people helped Raynoma move to NY in 1964, especially given that he also mentioned twice in the same post that she left for NY to set up the office in 1963. 

4 hours ago, Graham Jarvis said:

Thanks Robb

Yes she flew out to NY in 1963 ( no real date) to set up the office and everything else, it went on into 1964 (not a lot of detail and/or any dates) before the Mary Wells "My Guy" 45 bootlegs.

Barney Ales  with a few others was then sent over to close down the offices in 1964  (no formal dates that we know) after Berry sent for the FBI, it would have been sometime late summer? . There are  few if any  dates  for any or  all of this. Its difficult to make any suggestions of what happened when? We will never know, I do find it fascinating.  If you find anything please let me know.

You still haven't answered my question about why you ALSO mentioned her "moving to NY in 1964").  Was that just you relaying to us someone else's error or misstatement?As far as I had heard, Miss Ray and Berry were already separated (not living together) when she left to New York to set up the office.  And I also knew that she rented an apartment in New York.  So it could be that she came back to Detroit in early 1964 to get the last things out of her house, or the people you paraphrased made a mistake on which year it happened.  Which is it?  Or tell me why those numbers read "1964".  Thanks. 

I would think 1963 is more likely. Here's part of an article from the April 6,1963 issue of Billboard- 

As I remember, it was late may or early June of 1964 when Raynoma had the Mary Wells stock pressed up, and the office was closed down in late June or July. I think Raynoma went to New York in April of 1963, and there was some front work done bey her and Eddie Singleton, and the office was up and rolling in May.  I seem to remember recording credits from May, and song publishing dates from that month, too.

On 05/11/2022 at 06:25, Robbk said:

As I remember, it was late may or early June of 1964 when Raynoma had the Mary Wells stock pressed up, and the office was closed down in late June or July. I think Raynoma went to New York in April of 1963, and there was some front work done bey her and Eddie Singleton, and the office was up and rolling in May.  I seem to remember recording credits from May, and song publishing dates from that month, too.

It's all correct, Ray became "Miss Motown in 1963,  flew out in 63, she got her apartment in 63 , she secured an office in 63. Which I'm well aware of. This is not a piece to dispute 1963. The article is not concerning a detailed piece of work to establish the dates, times, addresses and so on for Ray between leaving Detroit and landing  in NY. This is  about the Miss Motown 45, and who Miss Motown was, as in 2015 nobody knew.   On the 45 record the year 1964 is very clear, Jack Gibson is also named, he knew Ray well, both in Detroit and his regular trips to N.Y. he would have been involved.

Was everything really up and running in 1963? it's easy to get an apartment and an office. Ray was back and forward to Detroit, no records were published in 1963 and things were getting really difficult. It's well worth reading Chapter 10 from Ray's bio (below). That's where the 1964 came from.

I should have left in the 1963 to 64 passage this would have clarified things, as the Motown year end review was December.  (I had  to shorten the article).

I can change the  Ray & Berry section  to 63 as it makes things clearer?

Thanks for your input, great find on the Billboard article.

There is also from Soul source a whole piece on the NY Motown Office and Miss Motown

Motown in The Brill Building - Keith Hughes & Andy Rix the first Motown office outside Detroit was in the Brill Building New York  

Terrific article thanks. You mentioned L A near the end but not Washington which was an important part of Rays life and closely connected to Jobete in NYC. Not directly relevant of course 

With regard to the Miss Motown 45, would there be a minimum "print" of discs...presumably just cutting a handful would be expensive. Was there an industry standard that deemed a minimum run essential so as to be cost effective?

If so how many Miss Motown 45s would you expect Motown to sanction.

1 hour ago, Owd Codger said:

With regard to the Miss Motown 45, would there be a minimum "print" of discs...presumably just cutting a handful would be expensive. Was there an industry standard that deemed a minimum run essential so as to be cost effective?

If so how many Miss Motown 45s would you expect Motown to sanction.

 The Miss Motown 45  was pressed (2 copies) arranged by Jack Gibson on a Motown disc and label the record has the Monarch plant  Delta numbers in the run-out groove. Like acetates or demo's many records were never issued. The Miss Motown 45 is a very personal gift between two people and not for general sale.

It's a very special thing, and there is a story that can be figured out from the 3 tracks as outlined.

Thanks.

I didn't think it was ever intended for General sale, just wondered about costs involved.

Graham

Do you think Berry Gordy actually knew about this Miss Motown disc at the time?

article has been edited by site, changed 1964 to 1963 at author's request

2 hours ago, Owd Codger said:

Graham

 

Do you think Berry Gordy actually knew about this Miss Motown disc at the time?

Berry did not know a thing, no one did until the 2 copies turned up in 2015, you might need to have a 2nd read of the article

 

On 04/11/2022 at 12:29, Graham Jarvis said:

I don't know if or not you have seen  a copy of Bartlettes  "Motown Master 1959-1989 Off The Record" (99 percent complete) issues and  not for sale  demo 45's etc (basically everything). Bartlette set about getting everything 12" masters etc. I have a good friend in Detroit and he worked in a 2nd  hand record store also in Detroit . He knows Bartlette & from memory Bartlett sold his collection to Berry in the early 2000's,   a couple of others used to pick up other Motown 45's from the record store for Berry.  Berry owns it and that's it, he dosen't need to do anything with it . Not aware he still receives any missing copies. No doubt he will have someone to look after things.

8 hours ago, Ady Croasdell said:

Terrific article thanks. You mentioned L A near the end but not Washington which was an important part of Rays life and closely connected to Jobete in NYC. Not directly relevant of course 

Ady thank you for the feedback, appreciate it. 

32 minutes ago, Eddie Hubbard said:

 

Eddie would welcome anything if its incorrrect.

On 05/11/2022 at 08:24, Graham Jarvis said:

It's all correct, Ray became "Miss Motown in 1963,  flew out in 63, she got her apartment in 63 , she secured an office in 63. Which I'm well aware of. This is not a piece to dispute 1963. The article is not concerning a detailed piece of work to establish the dates, times, addresses and so on for Ray between leaving Detroit and landing  in NY. This is  about the Miss Motown 45, and who Miss Motown was, as in 2015 nobody knew.   On the 45 record the year 1964 is very clear, Jack Gibson is also named, he knew Ray well, both in Detroit and his regular trips to N.Y. he would have been involved.

Was everything really up and running in 1963? it's easy to get an apartment and an office. Ray was back and forward to Detroit, no records were published in 1963 and things were getting really difficult. It's well worth reading Chapter 10 from Ray's bio (below). That's where the 1964 came from.

I should have left in the 1963 to 64 passage this would have clarified things, as the Motown year end review was December.  (I had  to shorten the article).

I can change the  Ray & Berry section  to 63 as it makes things clearer?

Thanks for your input, great find on the Billboard article.

 

 

There is also from Soul source a whole piece on the NY Motown Office and Miss Motown

Motown in The Brill Building - Keith Hughes & Andy Rix the first Motown office outside Detroit was in the Brill Building New York

 

Thanks for posting this.  It substantiates things I had both heard and surmised.

10 hours ago, Graham Jarvis said:

It's all correct, Ray became "Miss Motown in 1963,  flew out in 63, she got her apartment in 63 , she secured an office in 63. Which I'm well aware of. This is not a piece to dispute 1963. The article is not concerning a detailed piece of work to establish the dates, times, addresses and so on for Ray between leaving Detroit and landing  in NY. This is  about the Miss Motown 45, and who Miss Motown was, as in 2015 nobody knew.   On the 45 record the year 1964 is very clear, Jack Gibson is also named, he knew Ray well, both in Detroit and his regular trips to N.Y. he would have been involved.

Was everything really up and running in 1963?  Ray was back and forward to Detroit, no records were published in 1963 and things were getting really difficult. It's well worth reading Chapter 10 from Ray's bio (below). That's where the 1964 came from.

I should have left in the 1963 to 64 passage this would have clarified things, as the Motown year end review was December.  (I had  to shorten the article).

I can change the  Ray & Berry section  to 63 as it makes things clearer? [/quote]

 

 

 

 

 

I have seen lots of New York Office generated Jobete Music song publishing dates from 1963, So, I take it to mean that your statement "no records were published in 1963" referred to no vinyl records being issued contains those NY Office-generated songs in 1963.  

14 hours ago, Robbk said:

I have seen lots of New York Office generated Jobete Music song publishing dates from 1963, So, I take it to mean that your statement "no records were published in 1963" referred to no vinyl records being issued contains those NY Office-generated songs in 1963.  

Ray's bio is well worth the read ( presume you have a copy) especially chapter 10,  the team had been working throughout 63, and yes they had published songs. However it's the issue of a record  that matters, other than one record that was  issued in 63 namely: The Chiffons "A Love So Fine" it only happened with the support of the Tokens who wanted the record out as the Chiffons were on a "roll".  However  in 1964 "Motown NY" issued eleven 45's some of the greatest soul music of all time  (i'm biased but it still is) . As good as the 45's were  they didn't bring in much cash, Berry wouldn't  cough up anymore funds & Ray had to find more money to survive. Desperate for cash, 5000 bootleg pressings turned up, the rest we know.

I do believe  irrespective of the bootleg records, that the records they had and issued during the early part of 1964 would not have financially secured Motown NY.  If there are any of the 12 records  sound files that  you don't have  let me know. I can mail you directly.

Thanks.

7 hours ago, Graham Jarvis said:

Ray's bio is well worth the read ( presume you have a copy) especially chapter 10,  the team had been working throughout 63, and yes they had published songs. However it's the issue of a record  that matters, other than one record that was  issued in 63 namely: The Chiffons "A Love So Fine" it only happened with the support of the Tokens who wanted the record out as the Chiffons were on a "roll".  However  in 1964 "Motown NY" issued eleven 45's some of the greatest soul music of all time  (i'm biased but it still is) . As good as the 45's were  they didn't bring in much cash, Berry wouldn't  cough up anymore funds & Ray had to find more money to survive. Desperate for cash, 5000 bootleg pressings turned up, the rest we know.

I do believe  irrespective of the bootleg records, that the records they had and issued during the early part of 1964 would not have financially secured Motown NY.  If there are any of the 12 records  sound files that  you don't have  let me know. I can mail you directly.

Thanks.

 

Thanks Graham.  Actually, I don't have Raynoma's book.  Is there a list of the 12 1964 songs?  Actually, I'd like to see a list of the 1963 and '64 NY Jobete, and 1963-65 LA Jobete songs, IF they exist.  I'm sure I have most of the records issued with NY Jobete songs (probably all).  But, I'm too lazy to look blindly through my NY wall and major records wall to find them.  I can't spare several hours.  I guess I could order Raynoma's book through Amazon.

On 05/11/2022 at 17:15, Graham Jarvis said:

Eddie would welcome anything if its incorrrect.

Sorry Graham ,I tried to delete my post as I thought Reg Bartlette had sold his collection to Martin Koppell ,but I then remembered it was another American collector  with the 2nd copy of Frank Wilson .Thanks Eddie 

Here's a few pics/ ads from various phases of Jack Gibson's career. An ad from 1961 when he was doing independent promotion, a May, 1963 announcement of his promotion to National Promotion Manager  and at a NARA meeting in May, 1964 - 

On 06/11/2022 at 23:59, The Yank said:

Here's a few pics/ ads from various phases of Jack Gibson's career. An ad from 1961 when he was doing independent promotion, a May, 1963 announcement of his promotion to National Promotion Manager  and at a NARA meeting in May, 1964 - 

 

Jack was  key to Motown's growth  as one of the senior members of staff, it's ironic that there is little information or any details from Motown  concerning Jack Gibson, as he joined berry and Motown from 1961 to 1966.  Jack was supposedly selling off  bootleg Motown Albums in 1966 when Bery sacked him, there is another issue that Berry would have had with Jack. If you have had the opportunity  to work out the Miss Motown 45 from the 3 tracks you will also understand the reasons as to why Jack Gibson became a ghost. Big thanks for the pics it supports further everything we now know.

This thread led to me look at Al Abram's " Hype and Soul" book.

Al Abram's was Motown's first ( chief?) Publicist.(1959-1966)

I cannot find any reference at all to Jack Gibson, which seens strange given what we read from the above posts). Even in the section regarding Motown's links with DJs .

The majority of the articles in the book are press cuttings, letters promoting Motown, photographs of Motown artists etc from Motown's history whilst Abrams was Publicist.  There are no articles that feature Gibson, so it's not just a case of Abrams omitting him.

Were there any issues between them I wonder?

In Miss Ray's book the first mention of any date in New York is summertime and she was settled and growing the office etc by then.  Early 63 or Spring 63 is the likely time she left Detroit.