Are Re-Edits And Mash Ups Killing Soul Music?

This has been the talk of Radio 4 lately, i think it works.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doz1QJ7LwjA

I,m going to be barred for this Its been nice knowing you all

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LieU0sObtRA

Andy's post that started this thread mentioned the George Benson remix on Gamm records.
This is their latest offering that fiddles around with Diana Ross.

https://soundcloud.com/reverend-p/diana-r-brown-baby-reverend-p

To even up the balance here's one of the better Gamm remixes (IMO).

https://soundcloud.com/7-samurai/7-samurai-modernization-gamm

Andy's post that started this thread mentioned the George Benson remix on Gamm records.

This is their latest offering that fiddles around with Diana Ross.

https://soundcloud.com/reverend-p/diana-r-brown-baby-reverend-p

And if folk don't like this, i think this discussion of re-edits is being made in the wrong place...............................................

Some of you will say sacrilege but I quite like this.
 https://soundcloud.com/mikemaurromusic/the-spinners-its-a-shame-remix

Are mash ups killing soul......i want to give a thoughtful and tempered response but im not...the mash ups are just CRAP why Regurgitate tunes that are good in their own right with inferior shite.. the so called harold melvin, house for sale and pressure tracks ...well ive taken both millie and drizabone and changed the pitch and retained tempo on my cool edit pro software and got the same track, its so easy a 5 year old can do it

I cringe when people go "oh have you heard that remix of"...... its great

No its not killing soul.... only if we get sucked into the stupidity of it..... but i do think it dumbs down music...and some folks brains

Geeooooooordie

Andy's post that started this thread mentioned the George Benson remix on Gamm records.

This is their latest offering that fiddles around with Diana Ross.

https://soundcloud.com/reverend-p/diana-r-brown-baby-reverend-p

I think Diana Ross has been fiddled around with quite a few times allegedly !

And if folk don't like this, i think this discussion of re-edits is being made in the wrong place...............................................

It's obviously in the wrong place. Re-edits are not designed for the Soul Source audience full stop. No point in anyone on here lacerating themselves over this. The better re-edits are finding a completely different but massive audience elsewhere and frankly that's where they're aimed at. The majority S.S. audience are simply not interested in anything other than the original recording which is absolutely fine. As I keep saying, the last place I would go to hear a great re-edit set is anywhere connected with either the Northern or Modern scene. Any talk of these recordings 'killing' Soul music is just nuts. I don't even know why it's even up for discussion.....

Ian D 

Quite often people do things just because they can.

Technology is the key.

As soon as the tools - processes and effects - such as sample slicing, filtering, beat-matching and time-stretching became accurate enough and affordable (or free) it was inevitable that many people would cut up their favourite tracks and change things and add things in digital multi-track programmes. I used to do my own re-edits on a 1/4" Revox in the old days, just because I enjoyed it.

Another reason these tools are so necessary is because in most cases there is no access to the original multi-track master so people are working from final mixdowns and that has obvious limitations.

I'm not against re-edits or "mash-ups" (I think of them as "virtual remixes") because obviously some are good and some are bad, and many are completely unnecessary, but even a very creative re-edit is far easier than writing, arranging and producing a totally original work.

So why don't many people create original works instead? The cost is one thing but the real reasons are lack of talent, experience and determination. These days it's much easier to capture the sound (at least with most instruments) but it's not so easy to capture the feel and that's what is most important.

Using any hardware and software combinations, even the final mixdowns of today can't replicate the perfect blend of a good Philadelphia record which was recorded and mixed on expensive vintage equipment in a custom-built room with lots of top-rate outboard equipment and - most important - some talented and experienced engineers who were masters of their craft.

Another important factor, in my opinion, is that the art of songwriting is in serious decline (as I've often said before). It's far easier to rework a great old Gamble/Huff song than it is to write something new.

It's also worth noting that the majority of mash-ups and re-edits are legally unathorised and creatively unapproved so it's fair to assume that the original artists and producers may not always be very impressed with the results. A producer who spent thousands of dollars cutting a track in 1975 might not be very happy that a bedroom DJ spends next to nothing and puts his name on the "new" version. And that's what it's all about, sometimes, people trying to make names for themselves.

And then there's the money factor. How many re-edits issued on vinyl have paid licensing royalties to record companies or producers and / or mechanical royalties to publishers and songwriters? In some cases that may be the final insult.

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not against the re-edit movement but I'd like to see more authorisation, more consent and approval, and full credit (and payment) to original writers and producers etc. That's what happens with the Tom Moulton remixes issued by Demon.

Finally, as for the soul scene... I really don't see a problem. Haven't DJs always been free to play good records or bad records???

Paul

"And then there's the money factor. How many re-edits issued on vinyl have paid licensing royalties to record companies or producers and / or mechanical royalties to publishers and songwriters? In some cases that may be the final insult."

in a scene were individuals make more money out of selling old records for sometimes silly sums of money, where the original artists were probably never paid, or at best a pittance?

If one person buys an edit, then goes on to buy a legitimate purchase of the artist, their legacy may live on, the edit scene might do more for the soul scene, than it will to harm it. IMHO

"And then there's the money factor. How many re-edits issued on vinyl have paid licensing royalties to record companies or producers and / or mechanical royalties to publishers and songwriters? In some cases that may be the final insult."

 

in a scene were individuals make more money out of selling old records for sometimes silly sums of money, where the original artists were probably never paid, or at best a pittance?

If one person buys an edit, then goes on to buy a legitimate purchase of the artist, their legacy may live on, the edit scene might do more for the soul scene, than it will to harm it. IMHO

Fair point and in most cases the money would be very small but by following the rules at least the owners of the original master would have the opportunity to give or refuse consent and even their approval (or not) of the "new" version. I encourage creativity but respect is important.

By the way, I was only referring to commercial issues of tracks, obviously it's impossible to give consent to a DJ producer doing a "live" recreation of a track using Traktor hardware etc.

And I realise in time, with further advances in technology, it will become a free-for-all and the concept of copyright will be very different. It's both exciting and sad at the same time.

Thanks,

Paul

I can see how the 'Harold Melvin' might fool really stupid people.     

Andy's post that started this thread mentioned the George Benson remix on Gamm records.

This is their latest offering that fiddles around with Diana Ross.

https://soundcloud.com/reverend-p/diana-r-brown-baby-reverend-p

That's actually really quite excellent, at least somebody's picked out something that's not that well known and done something with it, rather than taking a now-tedious Philly record we've all heard a million times and adding another 27 minutes to either end.

Roger

Oh here we go.....it's the songwriters that get paid for sales at this point, not the singer.....Unless the singer is also the songwriter. In the 60's the artists may have got a percentage of sales if they were on a major label, but those contracts are now long gone......Aretha's "One step ahead" was written by Kay Rogers (under his alias) and Shelby Singleton. Both dead I believe.

Move along fella, there is nothing to see here.....A nice Aretha record, a credible and interesting remix a few years ago, a bad 12 inch mix.

Carry on selling and buying records for "silly sums of money"....cos if you didn't do that what would you be left with - ah yes just Oldies!

That's actually really quite excellent, at least somebody's picked out something that's not that well known and done something with it, rather than taking a now-tedious Philly record we've all heard a million times and adding another 27 minutes to either end.

 

Roger

I'll let the 25,000+ people that have bought the Moulton albums in the last 2 years know that you're not a fan Roger......

Ian D 

That's actually really quite excellent, at least somebody's picked out something that's not that well known and done something with it, rather than taking a now-tedious Philly record we've all heard a million times and adding another 27 minutes to either end.

 

Roger

Its very well known, its almost identical to the original and a remake was done better by Onur Engin a year or two back on a 12, and the combined cost of both originals on this 12 will set you back less than the price of this 12. Apart from tha its great, as its a great recording, as it always was

Its very well known, its almost identical to the original and a remake was done better by Onur Engin a year or two back on a 12, and the combined cost of both originals on this 12 will set you back less than the price of this 12. Apart from tha its great, as its a great recording, as it always was

That's the thing - a lot of people think they know exactly what's going on on other scene's when they don't - there a hundreds of great, playable and relatively (to the NS Soul scene anyway) obscure edits out there - and if nothing else the fact that someone has taken the time to edit them has brought them to the attention of others = GOOD THING.

Everything doesn't swing round this scene - there are raffs of other little 'scenes' doing whatever they do for their lot and feck what others say.

I'll let the 25,000+ people that have bought the Moulton albums in the last 2 years know that you're not a fan Roger......

 

Ian D 

As I've said Ian, I'm genuinely chuffed that they're a big success for you, I'm only expressing a personal opinion from my own point of view on the tracks.

Cheers

Roger

Its very well known, its almost identical to the original and a remake was done better by Onur Engin a year or two back on a 12, and the combined cost of both originals on this 12 will set you back less than the price of this 12. Apart from tha its great, as its a great recording, as it always was

It's not well known in our house, in an 'only known copy' kind of way. 

That's the thing - a lot of people think they know exactly what's going on on other scene's when they don't - there a hundreds of great, playable and relatively (to the NS Soul scene anyway) obscure edits out there - and if nothing else the fact that someone has taken the time to edit them has brought them to the attention of others = GOOD THING.

 

Everything doesn't swing round this scene - there are raffs of other little 'scenes' doing whatever they do for their lot and feck what others say.

Hardly anyone anywhere knows everything about other scenes, Barry, people can only ever express their opinion from their own usually limited knowledge and experience, it doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.  I agree though, and I think I've said earlier, if it breathes new life and further exposure into these tracks then yes, absolutely it's a good thing.

Andy's post that started this thread mentioned the George Benson remix on Gamm records.

This is their latest offering that fiddles around with Diana Ross.

https://soundcloud.com/reverend-p/diana-r-brown-baby-reverend-p

Love this, also love the Tom Moulton Philly stuff, listened to loads of it on my hols, bro in law has loads of it, to me, they sound like they are from the original can, no fancy space age effects added, original Sigma instrumentation, and to be honest, Tom has improved a lot of stuff I would previously argued that you couldn,t.

Kev

Love this, also love the Tom Moulton Philly stuff, listened to loads of it on my hols, bro in law has loads of it, to me, they sound like they are from the original can, no fancy space age effects added, original Sigma instrumentation, and to be honest, Tom has improved a lot of stuff I would previously argued that you couldn,t.

 

Kev

Also, in many cases, Tom is not gratuitously adding length for the sake of it but rather restoring the originals to the length that's actually on the masters! As a perfect example, the original recording of Robert Upchurch's "The Devil Made Me Do It" turned out to be 11 minutes long. We never knew that until the tape arrived. The only thing we'd ever heard up to then was the 4 minute edit from the master 'cos that's all that had ever been made available. This is a prime Philly session with all the key musicians including the late Vincent Montana playing their asses off over an 11 minute jam. That would have been lost forever if we hadn't dug it out.

Ian D    

Also, in many cases, Tom is not gratuitously adding length for the sake of it but rather restoring the originals to the length that's actually on the masters! As a perfect example, the original recording of Robert Upchurch's "The Devil Made Me Do It" turned out to be 11 minutes long. We never knew that until the tape arrived. The only thing we'd ever heard up to then was the 4 minute edit from the master 'cos that's all that had ever been made available. This is a prime Philly session with all the key musicians including the late Vincent Montana playing their asses off over an 11 minute jam. That would have been lost forever if we hadn't dug it out.

 

Ian D    

Another good example being Archie Bell "Where will you go" a bit longer, but you clearly hear its from the original can. Don,t know if it was Tom Moulton, but my bro in law played me some Harold Melvin stuff where they have used a different lead singer to Teddy, its awesome, the take of "Where are all my friends" using the alternative lead gave me goosebumps, sounded like Marvin Junior (obviously not) from the Dells on loan, incredible voice, any Idea who it is Ian ?

Kev

Another good example being Archie Bell "Where will you go" a bit longer, but you clearly hear its from the original can. Don,t know if it was Tom Moulton, but my bro in law played me some Harold Melvin stuff where they have used a different lead singer to Teddy, its awesome, the take of "Where are all my friends" using the alternative lead gave me goosebumps, sounded like Marvin Junior (obviously not) from the Dells on loan, incredible voice, any Idea who it is Ian ?

 

Kev

I'm pretty sure I've got that Kev. I have a feeling that it could be from some re-records that Harold Melvin did post PIR but I'll need to check. I've got an album full of fantastic different versions of some of the PIR stuff. I've gotta shoot off now but I'll try and dig the album out and refresh my memory.....

Ian D 

Another good example being Archie Bell "Where will you go" a bit longer, but you clearly hear its from the original can. Don,t know if it was Tom Moulton, but my bro in law played me some Harold Melvin stuff where they have used a different lead singer to Teddy, its awesome, the take of "Where are all my friends" using the alternative lead gave me goosebumps, sounded like Marvin Junior (obviously not) from the Dells on loan, incredible voice, any Idea who it is Ian ?

 

Kev

I am pretty sure it will be David Ebo, who was singer when they came to Stafford I thought. Fantastic singer if same guy. Have at least one solo thiing by him, a great 12". 

Just googled him to see if he was still signing and it looks like he died very young, sadly

https://articles.philly.com/1993-12-03/news/25942868_1_sisters-survivors-cancer

Thanks a lot Williams.

Curiosity got the better of me & I had to have a listen.

Not going to suffer alone though as it's that bad I know some others will have to hit the play button.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAi0itEqlkc

Oh dear 

Its very well known, its almost identical to the original and a remake was done better by Onur Engin a year or two back on a 12, and the combined cost of both originals on this 12 will set you back less than the price of this 12. Apart from tha its great, as its a great recording, as it always was

Paul, is this the mix/edit thats around 3.30?, (as opposed to the rev p edit closer to 10 mins long), or is there another?

I am pretty sure it will be David Ebo, who was singer when they came to Stafford I thought. Fantastic singer if same guy. Have at least one solo thiing by him, a great 12". 

 

Just googled him to see if he was still signing and it looks like he died very young, sadly

 

https://articles.philly.com/1993-12-03/news/25942868_1_sisters-survivors-cancer

He was lead singer on the All Things Happen in Time LP, which was very good. Tell Me Why and Ain't That Love being particularly good.

I think this kinda mashup is totally acceptable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_Jhr6znRaE

bit weak at the very end  but  hey...ho

cheers

Rob

Not quite as good as the previous....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9_AtdljUyg

...you decide

cheers

Rob

this is much better, wouldnt play it out, would play it in the car etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxUQMJEc9OQ

Interesting thread. I am starting to appreciate remixes the older I get. At least I can say 'you can't beat the original release' if its crap. But I am being pursuaded to think outside the box these days. Ian, it is yourself and Tom Moulton that have given tremendous worth to some of these recordings by pushing the boundaries with them. You know my feelings from a few years ago about remixes, but....I now see and hear the credence in a remix or two. Had this technology been around in the early 1970's don't you think 'Papa was a rolling stone' would have sounded different had Norman Whitfield got his hands on it? And I am sure there would have been a number of alternate versions.

We don't like change necessarily and those hallowed tunes are yardsticks for our lives sometimes. It's like 'listening to a photo' , then to find somebody has 'Photoshopped' it to enhance it, when it was alright in the first place.

But, I would like mention that I am creating original songs and experimenting with musicians in both Philly and LA on my creations. I write the songs, produce the demos release teaser demos on Soundcloud and YouTube and then release various mixes of my works for sale after registering with the appropriate label and song writing agencies here in the UK. I wish to create something with melody, counter melodies and a groove from the days when studios and session musicians were employed etc. 

At times it's exciting, but other times, soul destroying. I have released a number of songs recorded with full studio and top musicians for minimal sales. It is not cheap and if you saw the sales figures you might even consider giving up. I nearly have done on numerous occasions. But....I am seriously thinking of hiring a studio down here in London for a 'British' session to record some of my songs. But, I need to acquire good first call musicians...then, there is the union! But why should I? It will annoy some people knowing I will be recording 24bit and mastering down to 16bit using digital technology (the same technology that gives us mobile devices to hear our favourite tunes on..or even save our lives). And to read the comments about how I should write better songs if I want success, and the YouTube comment that states something like ' my dad whistling in the loo sounds better than what your doing. You don't have a clue' are some of the set backs I endure. Of course, that is why I post the songs, to get positive and negative feedback and react, which I am doing. 

My point is, whether I like it or not there is a scenario where a writer, producer still under contract for residuals, an artist, a musician etc may benefit from a re re-relesase, a sync deal on a movie or a remix of a tune and importantly...it makes a revenue to help pay for a) the investment in the first place of the original recording and b) accrue funds for a new project and recording. Ask Billy Jackson of doo wop group The Revels fame, what format he prefers his songs to be recorded on to? He wont have a clue what you are talking about.  And a remix of of 'Midnight Stroll'? He would probably rather not, but will it make any money and promote the original? 

So here is a re-mix scenario: Philly harmony group 'Double Exposure' had agreed to call it a day with their efforts in 2008. No work and no recording opps. I went over to Philly in September 2008 predicating a massive recession (in 2007) and that three of us should write 'Soul Recession',which we did. I had a notion for the song, so myself, Bobby Eli and Chiquita Green came up with the demo in the studio. The rhythm musicians came in on the Monday morning and we cut that song, plus three other songs (two unreleased at present). I pushed to release 8 versions, because I figured if somebody liked one version they may like another and purchase etc. Tom Moulton and John Moralis did remixes, Bobby did one and my idea of the radio announcer mix was the novelty version (I work at a TV station and I see and hear rolling news shit all day long and wanted to reflect that at the beginning of the song with a load of garbage and crap....which I did). Sales were poor, but out the blue over 4 years later a remix of the recording was suggested and Ian Dewhirst and Tom Moulton worked tirelessly to make this work for the label, writers, producers and artists of this song. That remix was released on the Philly Re-Grooved 3 album recently. So imagine how we feel, that the fruits of our labours back in 2008 were recognised and exploited at a different level we certainly never expected back then. So thank you Ian and Tom for being so persistent. To have one of my songs parked next to 'Hold back the night' on CD2 is one of the things that keeps me going and is a thrill. And most importantly, I have seen an increase in sales of the original version! Now, to complicate things....as a result of that track being released on the CD, I decided to upload the John Moralis 2008 mixes onto Soundcloud for the very first time, as I felt a little advertising of the tune in any format cannot be a bad thing. Then, I received a message from the manager of 'Double Exposure' about the scenario of the group possibly performing 'Soul Recession' as part of their set. That is not confirmed...but I would love it to happen...so I can at least go and whistle that version in the YouTube posters bog for him, because...I don't have a clue!

So the moral of this story is: your favourite record was created out of love and passion and used technology of the day with all its limitations. It also had financial ramifications and probably created family tensions when producers took the decision to spend the money being saved for the new bathroom, to hire the studio and pay for the musicians. So please think a little deeper about what is happening with a remix. It does not devalue an original release...it stimulates the market place and hopefully persuades others to rejoice because they have found some decent music to listen too...and then when they do find the original eventually, they will be reaching for a box of tissues. And to prove that, my 23 year old colleague at work has bought the Philly Re-grooved CD and cannot get enough of it. He never stops singing 'Jack in the Box'.....and is becoming a Philly fan!

Carl Dixon...News at Ten....London.

. AND ...... as if by (PHILLY) magic ...... .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci9Z0tXWwDI

... AND ....... another nice Moulton mix .............

(one that you shouldn't let go to your head) ..........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qdxRCMxADk

That's the one Roburt! And the $$'s in the title...my idea. I said to my wife when she designed the original sleeve art I wanted the two $'s pitched higher and lower to each other for effect. The difficulty with that is the version with a $ rather than an S does not show up so well in search results on YouTube..but, that's life. So because of that Philly session in 2008 and the original release of 'Soul Recession' the group decided to give it one more try on the road and I am happy to say are still performing! So who is going to get them to come across here to the UK before it's too late?

And I have just posted my latest demo release 'Caesars reply'. So, since the conception of the song, I must be on about the 20th version and it is now even released yet! So, that original release you talk about...is probably a version that is a combination of re takes, re edits and so forth!

I guess one day I will be able to say this had an original version.....hopefully!

I'm listening to this on a cd in my car at the moment.  For some reason I could not attach a file (Error : 500...whatever that is)

so here is a youtube link.....is "everything" on youtube now ???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vQRhMJT9OM

Not a remix but a new version of an old 1979 G&H penned Jones Girls Philly Int track .........

Shirley Jones (ex of the Jones Girls) & Lacee "I'm At Your Mercy" .......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N33QwYbFgJ8

......... AND .. the original version ..........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukFLWAMrr2w

Must say, I'm missing the trademark 'Jones Girls harmony singing' on the new version though Lacee can certainly sing well too.

I agree with all....some stuff cannot be improved upon.......however.........at ure mercy's....!x

@@
~

...pop....

The original....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0TQ2lSXxyo

...our remix..........

https://www.matso.tv/zoots/bumblebeesnrudeboys.mp3

...and Soul wise..this cannot be bettered....I know...me hairs on me arms tell me so 35 years after first hearing it.....but.....but.....our remix has its place in me heart too.....!x

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdEap9c7sU8&list=TLzNx1Xan4aXCixa97l5Abtxg6ErE6eWIz

LUV
SOOTY...& ZOMBIEBOY...a.k.a The ZOOTS COLLECTIVE!
XX

...erm...wot about this then?!

...my mate Pete...a.k.a Zombie Boy record Producer....new to Northern.....is genuinly keen on your opinions....!x Me...not bothered on opinions on music really...I think it's brill....and music is a 'personal' thing...however it is derived!x

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYzllwmxmEo

I just called him to say bye for a few days and he asked what response we'd had to the Fred's Rap since I put it up above......and told him 'none'....! We both had a moment that if together....would have produced a 'let's roll one' moment....!!!!hehe!x But we ain't together...so he said offer you all more to reflect on...and satisfy his curiosity.....! He's put about 300 solid hours into it over a year....his genius he questions often....I don't!........!!x There are 8 more Soul/Northern based tracks he's sampled/mixed for pleasure too.....he's blown away with the 'energy' of the music...and he had his success with the rave scene in the 90's.....so Northern is 'on it'....is he?!x

I look forward to reading honest comment upon my return....!x

@@
~
LUV
SOOTY
X

I'm listening to this on a cd in my car at the moment.  For some reason I could not attach a file (Error : 500...whatever that is)

 

so here is a youtube link.....is "everything" on youtube now ???

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vQRhMJT9OM

Take two classics, smash the 45's to pieces, glue them back together and this is what you end up with