Are Re-Edits And Mash Ups Killing Soul Music?

If I want to hear some killer re-edit sets, then, frankly, the last place I'd go to would be a Modern do.

 

Ian D   

As it would be if you wanted to hear something you've never heard before or didn't want to hear something you've heard thousand of times previously.

The problem I have with these debates is that the particular "genre" is discussed in isolation.

Of course I don't wanto listen to 1 or 2 hours of relentless re edits & remixes just as I don't want to hear 15 or 20 house tunes at 123 bpm on after the other.

As long as a DJ produces an interesting and entertaining set that is enogh for me - if it contains a couple of quality edits/remixes I am happy with that.

To be honest I actually love a re-edit when it's done well, it's just that so many I hear don't do much to add to what is generally already a classic except lengthen it, the majority seem pretty pointless, but the odd one or two do breathe new life into some tunes, but I do take Ian's point about the artists and originals being given exposure to a far wider and younger audience than inhabits the soul scene, that can only be a good thing with the added bonus that it gives a lot of sales to record companies who find it hard going in this day and age.

Roger

F*cking hell Ian, that is just uncanny, the record I was thinking of was Holland & Dozier "Why can't we be lovers", mine had a jump on it, just after the line "I try to leave but I don't have the heart".  Unbelievable.

Well that's probably the most obvious one for our age group since we all got accustomed to the mistakes. I realised there was a mistake on the pressing and that something else was up with the edit but didn't know enough about it all back then. Now that I actually work with HDH these days, I now realise how bad that release actually was! Didn't stop it going Top 30 though.

It still happens though. One of the all-time worse mixes I've ever heard is Shakira "Hips Don't Lie" and that was a No.1 record and grammy nomination! The public don't seem to mind....

Ian D 

As it would be if you wanted to hear something you've never heard before or didn't want to hear something you've heard thousand of times previously.

That's why I vary where I go all the time so I don't get bored. The best night I've had all year was @ Egg in London listening to Deep House. I'd rather hear some inspiring Soul Music which I probably will this weekend with a bit of luck. 

Ian D 

Well that's probably the most obvious one for our age group since we all got accustomed to the mistakes. I realised there was a mistake on the pressing and that something else was up with the edit but didn't know enough about it all back then. Now that I actually work with HDH these days, I now realise how bad that release actually was! Didn't stop it going Top 30 though.

 

It still happens though. One of the all-time worse mixes I've ever heard is Shakira "Hips Don't Lie" and that was a No.1 record and grammy nomination! The public don't seem to mind....

 

Ian D 

I never realised there was a mistake until you said yours also jumped, I just thought mine was scratched, I nicked it from a party about 6 months after it came out 

The funny thing is, the original single versions were virtually all re-edits of the album versions in the first place.

Ian D

Were they 're-edits' or 'remixes' ?   and surely the contemporaneous re-mixes - for radio, 45 or 12 or whatever - were done by the original creative (and talented) people who had an input into the original creative process?

Having loved black music (can I say that) in all its forms ,Ska ,Reggae Blues, African but mainly soul again in all its genres since the age of about fourteen I quite like some of the remixes and don't think there is any danger of them killing soul music. As long as they bring something different to the original, I have long searched on you tube for a Motown remix I heard at a soul night with no success, what I did find however was track after track of monotonous bass , drum machine shenanigans, Marvin seems to be a prime target for bedroom mixers.

    I guess many here will be spitting feathers at the recent Willie Mitchell /Adele mash up but again I think it works, I would not like to be the brave soul who chances playing it but you have to applaud the imagination of whoever put the two together. Let's face it the scene loves debate, argument call it what you will which is a good thing as it shows above all that we all care about the music and if it needs stuff like this to make new blood aware of the scene it can't be a bad thing IMO.

  My memory aint that good anymore but I have an old tape of a Robbie Vincent show where he played a nine minute remix of the Temps Papa Was A Rolling Stone after which he speculated what Norman Whitfield would think of it, nothing new under the sun I guess

Were they 're-edits' or 'remixes' ?   and surely the contemporaneous re-mixes - for radio, 45 or 12 or whatever - were done by the original creative (and talented) people who had an input into the original creative process?

Most of 'em were re-edits Mike. They would often be done be done almost as an afterthought in the studio, i.e. let the engineer bang a 3 minute radio edit from the full version, or, even worse, sometimes the promotion guys did 'em (there's many famous stories of the promotion guys editing the album versions for the radio edit - "Light My Fire" by the Doors being one of the biggest). The Sigma musicians simply went in and played the sessions and then went to the next session. On much of the Philly recorded stuff I'm sure the producers - Gamble, Huff, Bell, Eli etc would have overseen the radio edits but as Gamble told me, they just banged 'em out 'cos they were always too busy recording the next hit!

At Sigma Sound the musicians generally got the groove pumping and then it would be up to the producer/engineer or promotion guys to guys to cut the radio edit from the recording. Some of those 3 minute Philly singles that we all know and love are from 10 minute recordings!

Ian D   

I was going to ask is their a thriving modern in the true sense of the meaning modern soul scene?

Me to - Is there still a Modern Scene? I know most of the Modern Rooms that were attached to All-nighters are now alternative rooms - They used to be kicking!

All the best,

Len  

On much of the Philly recorded stuff I'm sure the producers - Gamble, Huff, Bell, Eli etc would have overseen the radio edits but as Gamble told me, they just banged 'em out 'cos they were always too busy recording the next hit!

 

Ian D   

Exactly - they oversaw the the process and decided to 'bang 'em out' , but it was their choice and as such was part of the creative process - for better or worse  Not waiting 40 years and adding football crowd noises to a perfect Aretha track and making it sound like Footsee complete with the Sheff Wed fans !!

Me to - Is there still a Modern Scene? I know most of the Modern Rooms that were attached to All-nighters are now alternative rooms - They used to be kicking!

 

All the best,

 

Len  

There are still a few nights that survive, but they are run by what I class to be proper modern soul fans who are pioneering new music with a soulful vibe. Champions include people like Mark R, Fish, Andy Jackson, Roger, Colin C, and a few others. Sadly for much of the time they tend to get drowned out by those that prefer to put on a modern room featuring "something we all know" all night. In a way you are right Len, I still want to hear new music and the number of places where you can is limited.......Oh another parallel with the n. scene!

There are still a few nights that survive, but they are run by what I class to be proper modern soul fans who are pioneering new music with a soulful vibe. Champions include people like Mark R, Fish, Andy Jackson, Roger, Colin C, and a few others. Sadly for much of the time they tend to get drowned out by those that prefer to put on a modern room featuring "something we all know" all night. In a way you are right Len, I still want to hear new music and the number of places where you can is limited.......Oh another parallel with the n. scene!

I packed in DJ'ing at venues, Steve, I was worn down by the "something we all know" brigade, it became too much like hard work and impossible to play anything new to any kind of response, even at the purportedly 'upfront' gigs I was doing,  and it sucked the enjoyment out of doing it for me, so I walked away from it and honestly haven't looked back since - the straw that broke this particularly camel's back was when I did a gig where I was told it was an open-minded crowd and within 15 minutes of my set got harrassed for Drizabore "Real Love' about half a dozen times, to the extent that one of the other DJ's who had his lappy with him, downloaded the track from the internet and burned it to CD so I could get people off my back about it - after that I just wondered what 'the scene' had come to when the tail wags the dog so much, it wasn't why I started doing it many years ago so it was simply time to turn it in and let others be human jukeboxes if that's what they're happy being.

Roger

I packed in DJ'ing at venues, Steve, I was worn down by the "something we all know" brigade, it became too much like hard work and impossible to play anything new to any kind of response, even at the purportedly 'upfront' gigs I was doing,  and it sucked the enjoyment out of doing it for me, so I walked away from it and honestly haven't looked back since - the straw that broke this particularly camel's back was when I did a gig where I was told it was an open-minded crowd and within 15 minutes of my set got harrassed for Drizabore "Real Love' about half a dozen times, to the extent that one of the other DJ's who had his lappy with him, downloaded the track from the internet and burned it to CD so I could get people off my back about it - after that I just wondered what 'the scene' had come to when the tail wags the dog so much, it wasn't why I started doing it many years ago so it was simply time to turn it in and let others be human jukeboxes if that's what they're happy being.

 

Roger

It would appear that my lengthy reply which went missing actually got re-directed to you! LOL

Anyway, we need you back mate.......definitely!

Cheers,

Mark R

Exactly - they oversaw the the process and decided to 'bang 'em out' , but it was their choice and as such was part of the creative process - for better or worse  Not waiting 40 years and adding football crowd noises to a perfect Aretha track and making it sound like Footsee complete with the Sheff Wed fans !!

LOL, that's a 'lil unfair MIke. The Aretha Franklin record is a ballad and thus would not fit any kind of dance-floor in it's original form. If someone's had the inspiration to add a touch of Marvin and an RnB rhythm some 45 years later and turn it into a new anthem for the audience then good luck to 'em surely? I have never not seen that remix pack the floor. The old version was simply too old to make sense for today's dance-floors. 

You can always get a drink when this is playing 'cos everyone's usually on the floor and the bar is clear!  

Ian D   

I packed in DJ'ing at venues, Steve, I was worn down by the "something we all know" brigade, it became too much like hard work and impossible to play anything new to any kind of response, even at the purportedly 'upfront' gigs I was doing,  and it sucked the enjoyment out of doing it for me, so I walked away from it and honestly haven't looked back since - the straw that broke this particularly camel's back was when I did a gig where I was told it was an open-minded crowd and within 15 minutes of my set got harrassed for Drizabore "Real Love' about half a dozen times, to the extent that one of the other DJ's who had his lappy with him, downloaded the track from the internet and burned it to CD so I could get people off my back about it - after that I just wondered what 'the scene' had come to when the tail wags the dog so much, it wasn't why I started doing it many years ago so it was simply time to turn it in and let others be human jukeboxes if that's what they're happy being.

 

Roger

I'm not sure if there's still a 'Modern Soul' scene per se is there? There's a handful of core enthusiasts who valiantly push new contemporary releases but I'm really not sure where they congregate apart from the Luxury Soul Weekenders.....

Ian D 

I'm not sure if there's still a 'Modern Soul' scene per se is there? There's a handful of core enthusiasts who valiantly push new contemporary releases but I'm really not sure where they congregate apart from the Luxury Soul Weekenders.....

 

Ian D 

Even the new soul aspect has been squeezed out of the LSW for the most part, I find that really sad to be honest, another nail in the coffin for truly 'modern' soul.

Even the new soul aspect has been squeezed out of the LSW for the most part, I find that really sad to be honest, another nail in the coffin for truly 'modern' soul.

Difficult to beat the old Birmingham Hilton lounge for breaking new stuff by the sound of it.....

Ian D 

. The old version was simply too old to make sense for today's dance-floors. 

 

You can always get a drink when this is playing 'cos everyone's usually on the floor and the bar is clear!

 

Ian D   

It's a floor packer at 'Just Soul' Ian 

I love the way people use the Northern based "Modern" scene as a metaphor for soul music in general, and particularly thinking that people in a studio in America would be aware of it as their inspiriation, its a bit like the people who are convinced Enid Blyton used Noddy as a metaphor for porn!

Not sure re-edits and mash ups should be mentioned in same sentence, absolutely nothing to do with each other. I have loved some re-edits in car, been ecstatic at them in the hands of "proper" DJ's like MAW, and hated them at weekenders when they become  the equivalent of the Saturday afternoon sing a long at the British Legion.

As always I reserve my right to deny my remarks if seen dancing, singing and waving my arms to The Love I Lost re-edit part 74 at a soul venue.

It's a floor packer at 'Just Sou' Ian 

Has Hampsey got your Soul Source password? 

It's a floor packer at 'Just Soul' Ian 

You mean a 'leg waggler for the over 50's' surely? 

Ian D 

You mean a 'leg waggler for the over 50's' surely? 

 

Ian D 

Slow music to walk around the dance floor slowly to with your arms outstretched and eyes closed. 

Nothing wrong with a few re-edits Mash ups. As a few people have said would not like a full hour/night of them. As in all types  there are good and bad and a matter of personal taste. I personally  think the George Benson & Aretha  ones actually are better dance floor tunes than the original but still love the original tunes. Even though they are a few years old now & are probably overplayed to the dj's point of view but the paying punter who don't get out as much still love them. As for the new modern scene it is exactly like the rare soul scene with not as many people that want to hear new tunes. The biggest problem is finding new soul tunes. They are all usually downloads only & not many so called soul artist record dance tracks .The better soulful house tunes & re-edits are always 6-8 mins long which is too long to dance to in my opinion.so should all have radio edits on them to give us a choice.

Personally I prefer the Dr E-Z Remix of this but that's just me and her indoors

There are still a few nights that survive, but they are run by what I class to be proper modern soul fans who are pioneering new music with a soulful vibe. Champions include people like Mark R, Fish, Andy Jackson, Roger, Colin C, and a few others. Sadly for much of the time they tend to get drowned out by those that prefer to put on a modern room featuring "something we all know" all night. In a way you are right Len, I still want to hear new music and the number of places where you can is limited.......Oh another parallel with the n. scene!

You forgot Brian Goucher!    ......I'm a regular at his Thursday night sessions (in his record room).......'Numbers are low', but we love it  

Len  

It's a floor packer at 'Just Soul' Ian 

But only after the remix had brought it back to life....

Featurecast - One step is a work of genius, when someone messes with a gaye/franklyn track i would run a mile but this is really cleaver and works so so well, just one example of cleaver editing, time stretch and thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EQp-j5g_T4

That is shocking. Why did they feel they had to speed up her voice?

That is shocking. Why did they feel they had to speed up her voice?

I have now decided that I absolutely hate this and want to smash the face of whoever did this to a such a wonderful soul record

Me to - Is there still a Modern Scene? I know most of the Modern Rooms that were attached to All-nighters are now alternative rooms - They used to be kicking!

 

All the best,

 

Len  

Aren't "alternative rooms" just rooms with a second pair of decks and a load of DJ's who work for free? Just saying like! 

I have now decided that I absolutely hate this and want to smash the face of whoever did this to a such a wonderful soul record

Seek help. I'm not sure if Soul Source can actually condone violence even if it's in defence of the desecration of the Queen Of Soul! 

Ian D 

That is shocking. Why did they feel they had to speed up her voice?

That re-edit / mash-up or just plain fuck-up is truly awful.

Derek

Aren't "alternative rooms" just rooms with a second pair of decks and a load of DJ's who work for free? Just saying like! 

That seems to be the score these days LOL. Where are the pros who have the guts to break new tunes when you need 'em ay? 

Oh, they'll be the unassuming ones at the back of the queue of the 50 free DJ's with "Tribute" and that bloody Aretha Frankin atrocity won't they? 

Ian D 

That seems to be the score these days LOL. Where are the pros who have the guts to break new tunes when you need 'em ay? 

 

Oh, they'll be the unassuming ones at the back of the queue of the 50 free DJ's with "Tribute" and that bloody Aretha Frankin atrocity won't they? 

 

Ian D 

I quite liked the original mix of the Aretha remix  when it was on a 7" edit - but it was YEARS ago now. Can't beleive it's being considered as "modern" soul. Picked it up when I was buying loads of new stuff off of Mark Coddington. It wasn't done for the soul scene originally - Jamaicans were behind it so I assume it was a kind of Jamaican scene lovers tune thing. But listening to that mix posted up the other day it sounds awful. 

"Tribute" = dogsh*t. For me it all started to go downhill when Lisa Stansfield's "8-3-1" got spins......I remember Nige Mayfield telling me this hilarious story of Lisa performing in Nottingham in front of a couple of thousand youngsters. When she did "8-3-1" about 20 fifty something Normans jump up and start doing northern soul dancing at the front of the stage. Apparently the looks on the faces of the other 2,000 people was a picture - like "who are these people - they're SO funny. Are they part of the show?" 

Anyway I digress, yes "alternative rooms" are a gimmick, and encourage wannabe DJ's who ain't good enough to be paid for a set. Great for promotors though......they're offering "something different" for the discerning punter eh? That's right innit? 

Aren't "alternative rooms" just rooms with a second pair of decks and a load of DJ's who work for free? Just saying like! 

....Yes 'a bone chucked'......in some cases

Len  

That seems to be the score these days LOL. Where are the pros who have the guts to break new tunes when you need 'em ay? 

 

 

Ian D 

......'The Masses' don't want em.....or they are told they don't want em......

Len  

 

Anyway I digress, yes "alternative rooms" are a gimmick, and encourage wannabe DJ's who ain't good enough to be paid for a set. Great for promotors though......they're offering "something different" for the discerning punter eh? That's right innit? 

Yes you're right, but unfortunately the past ten years has caused these rooms to be the only chance of hearing more than a hand full of 'something different' to what is being played in the Main rooms - This was not the case through the 90's, in fact 'alternative rooms' were not necessary / needed - This was before 'The Returnees returned'......In saying this, these 'Returnees' shouldn't be patronised - I believe if done correctly, they would welcome different stuff.........we've been here before.......

Len  

P.s - Btw, we don't play 'something different' in 'Len's Den', we play 'SOUL MUSIC'.....and all the D.J's get paid (very well actually).......Well above the minimum wage.....  

Yes you're right, but unfortunately the past ten years has caused these rooms to be the only chance of hearing more than a hand full of 'something different' to what is being played in the Main rooms - This was not the case through the 90's, in fact 'alternative rooms' were not necessary / needed - This was before 'The Returnees returned'......In saying this, these 'Returnees' shouldn't be patronised - I believe if done correctly, they would welcome different stuff.........we've been here before.......

 

Len  

 

P.s - Btw, we don't play 'something different' in 'Len's Den', we play 'SOUL MUSIC'.....and all the D.J's get paid (very well actually).......Well above the minimum wage.....  

Well I am glad someone is doing it right Len   You are a man of taste as you and I both know. To my way of thinking 2nd / alternative rooms have to have a purpose beyond a bunch of wannabees who've managed to amass 50 or so obscure records wanting to play their records to a near empty room. So many of these rooms seem to have very little action beyond the DJ's and their birds hanging round looking glum waiting to see if they can get back on the decks for another turn of the wheels of steel   

The King Tutt 12" is a re-edit of the 7" mix, don't stop it going for big money.

The 7" mix is infinitely better though Barry..!

Modern soul surely thats GRIME/DUB STEP innit !!

Well I am glad someone is doing it right Len   You are a man of taste as you and I both know. To my way of thinking 2nd / alternative rooms have to have a purpose beyond a bunch of wannabees who've managed to amass 50 or so obscure records wanting to play their records to a near empty room. So many of these rooms seem to have very little action beyond the DJ's and their birds hanging round looking glum waiting to see if they can get back on the decks for another turn of the wheels of steel   

Absolutely mate, I wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't worth it - The truth is, I really wanted to (was gonna) stop promoting this year, but 'The Den' seems to have taken off - not many events would make Dave Allen and the 'Birmingham Possy' travel - They're more 'picky' than Brian Goucher!  .....maybe it was meant to be.......  

Len  

In terms of the original question, yes too much overkill of anything is bad. Personally I prefer a greater proportion of new stuff and DJ's with imagination.

Is tere a modern scene still? I don't go out much these days but there are certainly many variations of it. THere's plenty of dos advertised on EMS and I'm sure that a lot of the same people attend these. Down in Kent, there's loads of activity on the Caister / 70s,80s soul stuff. It's surprised me how popular it still is. It's totally different from what I know as the modern scene and it's more akin to the northern oldies scene with people listening to their faves over and over again.

hi Dave, yes spot on about the Caister scene, big in Essex too. it's just the same as the majority of the northern scene.....ironic since those guys used to dismiss northern too! Looking at it another way it's just a bunch of 40 and 50 somethings enjoying themselves with no real passion to hear anything new. There's nothing wrong with that and we scoff at people having fun at our own peril. But to consider it as anything other than a revival scene (playing an even smaller group of records than the northern 500) is not right either. The day Chris Hill forgets to pack Luther Vandross in his box all hell will break loose....I promise!

That is shocking. Why did they feel they had to speed up her voice?

Think its called time stretching pete, it works for me

Think its called time stretching pete, it works for me

It worked really well for Pinky and Perky

Think its called time stretching pete, it works for me

Might as well not be Aretha singing it then?  Just anyone who's voice you can alter.  I'd have slowed down the backing track, not the vocal.  Then set fire to the master tapes.

The 7" mix is infinitely better though Barry..!

Correct.

Might as well not be Aretha singing it then?  Just anyone who's voice you can alter.  I'd have slowed down the backing track, not the vocal.  Then set fire to the master tapes.

Anyone remember the 'male' version of Drizabore 'Pressure', where somebody had simply changed the pitch on the female vocal, that was classic.  There truly are some thick muppets around who fall for this stuff!! 

Anyone remember the 'male' version of Drizabore 'Pressure', where somebody had simply changed the pitch on the female vocal, that was classic.  There truly are some thick muppets around who fall for this stuff!! 

Thanks a lot Williams.

Curiosity got the better of me & I had to have a listen.

Not going to suffer alone though as it's that bad I know some others will have to hit the play button.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAi0itEqlkc

I,m going to be barred for this Its been nice knowing you all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LieU0sObtRA