Wigan Casino - Its Influence, Its Legacy... A Panel Event at 'Museum of Wigan Life'

The Idea that Wigan Casino was,/is detrimental to the scene seems a bit odd  to me the place was of its time and ran its course  Peoples narrow attitudes and a desire to re-live and re-invent their youth backed up by money grabbing promoters that will exploit the nostalgia feeding frenzy  is definitely more detrimental. 

I don't believe any club or venue can be detrimental to any scene. Surely it's down to the DJs to educate the crowd and not allow the crowd to influence them into going in what may be considered the wrong direction. 

It just takes those playing the records to believe in what they play and hopefully take the crowd with them.

That's what use to happen when I started attending nighters and soul nights.

7 minutes ago, RobR said:

I don't believe any club or venue can be detrimental to any scene. Surely it's down to the DJs to educate the crowd and not allow the crowd to influence them into going in what may be considered the wrong direction. 

It just takes those playing the records to believe in what they play and hopefully take the crowd with them.

That's what use to happen when I started attending nighters and soul nights.

Well, it CAN be can't it, whether you think it was is a matter of opinion.  The example I gave of the introduction of the Oldies All Nighter could be argued to have been a little divisive couldn't it and, whilst I 100% agree with what you say about DJ's, that was a venue policy.  So IF that was the start of preservation rather than progression then surely that could be traced as detriment to the scene we have now?  Like I say, you may disagree, but it IS an example of how a venue and it's policies could contribute in a negative way.

Cheers,

Mark R

10 hours ago, Mark R said:

Well, it CAN be can't it, whether you think it was is a matter of opinion.  The example I gave of the introduction of the Oldies All Nighter could be argued to have been a little divisive couldn't it and, whilst I 100% agree with what you say about DJ's, that was a venue policy.  So IF that was the start of preservation rather than progression then surely that could be traced as detriment to the scene we have now?  Like I say, you may disagree, but it IS an example of how a venue and it's policies could contribute in a negative way.

 

Cheers,

Mark R

Absolutely Mark. I did go to Wigan Casino and remember thinking when they started the oldies all nighters, why would I go all that way to listen to oldies all night? A lot of "oldies" were played on Saturday nights anyway plus you had Mr M's for those that wanted just oldies. In hindsight I actually think it was started as a money spinner, but it did ultimately have a detrimental effect on attendance on the Saturdays. Not the only reason attendances wained, but one of them. 

14 hours ago, Paul-s said:

I find that statement totally baffling and to my humble ears totally misguided.

DJ's often seem very apathetic in terms of leaving the comfort of their hot box, chancing their arm with a lesser known, or very often have no idea of the massive breadth of whats not played/underplayed.

 

I was addressing the point that venues are boring and playing the same records.

People keep saying we should be playing all these other records, but what are these other great records that nobody knows yet?

I am all for playing different records but most of these different records are known and a lot have been played from time to time so they are going to be boring to somebody!

Boxes have been sifted and both sides of records played for many decades, the chances of finding  great new records that nobody knows are getting slim!

As I said I am all for playing different records at venues, but we can't expect the 1970's/80's level of finds and discoveries! 

From experience I can say that there are deejays with very substantial collections playing a lot of regularly played stuff played also by other deejays with similarly very substantial collections. This is not just a Wigan 50 year anniversary issue. It might be promoters telling them what to play, it might be punters voting with their feet, a combination of these, or just fear of pushing the envelope, but it does seem a waste and it seems to be very far from the original spirit of the scene.

I was too young to attend the Casino but I know from playlists and recordings that a lot of records played there in later years by e.g. Richard S and Gary R have not been revived except maybe by a few non-headliner deejays given afternoon or early doors slots and therefore free to be more adventurous.

Most people seem to assume that punters attending evening events want to hear familiar sounds, and I was told by a deejay earlier this year that he is not "allowed" to play some of his afternoon spins during evenings because the audience won't let him.

There is clearly a market for nostalgia and just as in whatever remains of the jazz-funk scene there are people of a certain age who want to relive their past, and promoters naturally cater to them. As we all get older it's no surprise that preservation takes over progression for some. And if we judge "success" as a full dancefloor, then many oldies deejays are very successful.

However I love hearing new, unfamiliar and forgotten sounds played out as it is clear that the surface is barely being scratched in many cases. Maybe "success" should be measured by how many people stay in the room, rather than only on the dancefloor - if the music is crap then punters will walk, especially at a multi-room event, whereas chin-stroking and liquid consuming can be done while listening to what is played. And a lot of people don't seem to appreciate just how fresh the familiar records can sound in the middle of unfamiliar sounds.

There are some promoters who take care to provide space for rare and underplayed sounds at multi-room events, and maybe the only "criticism" of them I can reasonably offer is that this aspect could be emphasised more strongly. Otherwise the best way to hear less familiar sounds is to turn up early and support those spinners who are not necessarily headlining but who can be relied on to dig deeper and play the underplayed. You'll quickly figure out who is worth following and who is just playing obscurities for the sake of it without any sort of quality control, which is a different problem altogether but one that can also reduce attendance at events.

Another possibility would be to relax the OVO rule as this places in my view unreasonable limits on what can be played, prioritises format over music quality, and feeds the chequebook deejay phenomenon that many here highlight as a big problem. That's going to be controversial but it should be possible to provide space for non-OVO content without compromising OVO policy in e.g. the main room of a multi-room event.

2 hours ago, Solidsoul said:

I was addressing the point that venues are boring and playing the same records.

People keep saying we should be playing all these other records, but what are these other great records that nobody knows yet?

I am all for playing different records but most of these different records are known and a lot have been played from time to time so they are going to be boring to somebody!

Boxes have been sifted and both sides of records played for many decades, the chances of finding  great new records that nobody knows are getting slim!

As I said I am all for playing different records at venues, but we can't expect the 1970's/80's level of finds and discoveries! 

Installing means of playing vault finds other than on vinyl would be a start.......the scene shoots itself in the foot taking it's sensibilities (Ii.e. OVO) too far doesn't it?

Cheers,

Mark R

While I agree that the Oldies All nighters   had a detrimental affect on the Saturday ,and therefore the newer 60s discoveries  scene , especially the night after , but also , lots of people got into the habit of  attending on a monthly basis instead of weekly , specifically for the First Friday in the month .                                                                                                                                                       The thing about those Oldies all nighters  though was that after the first couple , the place was absolutely bursting at the seams and the atmosphere was out of this world , by this time , people were getting in through the roof , through back doors , fire exits , and it felt like they let in as many as turned up at the door .( as the rumors of closures grew over time , maybe it was a matter of make as much as possible before the whole thing ends) in hindsight this was probably a disaster waiting to happen , but at the time , it was a hell of a blow out !                                                                                                                                                                          

19 minutes ago, Carty said:

While I agree that the Oldies All nighters   had a detrimental affect on the Saturday ,and therefore the newer 60s discoveries  scene , especially the night after , but also , lots of people got into the habit of  attending on a monthly basis instead of weekly , specifically for the First Friday in the month .                                                                                                                                                       The thing about those Oldies all nighters  though was that after the first couple , the place was absolutely bursting at the seams and the atmosphere was out of this world , by this time , people were getting in through the roof , through back doors , fire exits , and it felt like they let in as many as turned up at the door .( as the rumors of closures grew over time , maybe it was a matter of make as much as possible before the whole thing ends) in hindsight this was probably a disaster waiting to happen , but at the time , it was a hell of a blow out !                                                                                                                                                                          

But it could be that very few of these people making it "burst at the seems" were the folk who the longevity of the scene was going to depend on. So, great for the time and for those who now sit and reminisce about WC, but not so great in the long run for those still around into the 80's and beyond.

But of course, it's hard to resist that short term success when there's a great atmosphere available for the punters and lots of money to be made by the owners/promoter's.

I don't know what's right, but I enjoy the conjecture and opinions!!

Cheers,

Mark R

Mark,

Maybe there is no right or wrong to the debate, just a load of opinions based on what we witnessed or thought about what evolved or didn't evolve.

Could it be said that more and more events opening up alternative rooms to the main room also played it's part in diluting the music played as there was always an option to not hear new sounds or styles.

Personally I preferred the one room but all genres played together, it worked for me and certainly broadened my tastes.

Cheers

Rob

35 minutes ago, Robr said:

Mark,

Maybe there is no right or wrong to the debate, just a load of opinions based on what we witnessed or thought about what evolved or didn't evolve.

Could it be said that more and more events opening up alternative rooms to the main room also played it's part in diluting the music played as there was always an option to not hear new sounds or styles.

Personally I preferred the one room but all genres played together, it worked for me and certainly broadened my tastes.

Cheers

Rob

Oh I agree............relative to the example I gave, M's vs Main Room is just an extension of the normal night vs OAN thing for me.

I think some of us with broad taste would have just liked to have seen a "soul scene" develop......not a "northern soul scene" or a "modern soul scene" etc.  In fact, it's the very point of how I perceive it was vs how it is now vs how I think it could have developed which motivates me to get involved in these conversations about somewhere I didn't go!!

RS was playing 60's alongside new releases back at the end of the Casino, so with the odd exception it always feels to me like we've actually gone backwards.  Sure in the 80's it carried on at some venues (in one room I mean - Rotherham/Stafford), but others concentrated on traditional sounds/oldies (Hinckley) and now it rarely happens to hear a mix in one room..........not exactly progress that? 

Cheers,

Mark R

15 hours ago, Robr said:

I don't believe any club or venue can be detrimental to any scene. Surely it's down to the DJs to educate the crowd and not allow the crowd to influence them into going in what may be considered the wrong direction. 

It just takes those playing the records to believe in what they play and hopefully take the crowd with them.

That's what use to happen when I started attending nighters and soul nights.

I’m not saying for a minute the venue itself is detrimental. It is the constant fixation of a pretty narrow selection of records, week in week out that is detrimental. 
Would you watch top of the pops from 1978 on rewind for 50 years?

There's a clip on the original documentary, interviewing Dave Withers. He pondered what he would do if the casino closed? He said it would be instant nostalgia and would be like spending the rest of your life constantly looking back !

On the positive side, SOME of the events I still do attend play such a diverse selection of great SOUL records like never before. They may not be classed as northern or modern but most are soul in one form or another.

In my experience these venues do tend to be in back street clubs or pubs and are quite often held on a Sunday with the local collectors free to play what they think would be good to hear.

Constantly hear records I have never come across before.

Cheers

Rob

On 17/10/2023 at 13:09, Mark R said:

I was too young for the Casino, would of course loved to have gone, and do soak the history of it up like a sponge, as I do for the UK soul scene in general plus of course the US scene of the 70's/80's: black music/club history.  But in truth from the turn of the year I was dreading September 2023 and all the BS surrounding the 50th Anniversary of WC.  Hanging on to the past is no good for any scene and indeed any individual IMHO............but a nod to it occasionally is fine..........and quite naturally, we ALL do it.  Just not to the point where an obsession with the the past hinders the (and our own!) musical future!!

These seminars/videos were good.  Much of it resonated with me in general, away from the specifics I can't comment on about WC, and Tim A was bang on..............to paraphrase him I would sum up by saying that some people know the price of everything, yet the value of nothing, when it comes to records!

It's particularly nice to hear GR get a voice in it.  I would say Gary's records from the Stafford era are amongst my best musical memories of that period (Oracles/Porgy & The Monarchs/Bobby Valentin/Gasoline Powered Clock/Little Stanley....on it goes).  Great to get his views.

A couple of things I thought were contradictory but I would have to watch again to remind myself which aspects.  But it's just opinions isn't it?

One observation though: when complaining about the way the BBC portray the NS (both on the videos and folk subsequently on here) I can't help but feel the BBC's interest probably wasn't by chance.  If you ponder that whilst considering the fact that we all know they won't portray it well, I think the reason for their involvement becomes clear and explains why we'll probably see further celebrations going forward, rather than letting it lie.

 

Cheers,

Mark R

Hi Mark. 

I was lucky enough to go to Wigan a few times from the age of 15 lol. But agree with you on many points on this.   I enjoyed the oldies niters for the buzz and as a youngster the dancersand clappingetc , but also enjoyed the Saturday niters for hearing new sounds especially records from Gary Rushbrooke and newer records from Richard although it looked so empty. 

When you mentioned what records Gary Rushbrooke did for you I totally agree especially with the Vondells, Ree Flores, Royal Esquires, Tommy Dodson ,Tee Fletcher , Embers crazy about you baby with so so so many more.  Not heard  gasoline powered clock for ages was it covered up as Lord Sitar and the Baltimore Marching Band?

Mick

On 17/10/2023 at 19:07, Paul-s said:

I find that statement totally baffling and to my humble ears totally misguided.

DJ's often seem very apathetic in terms of leaving the comfort of their hot box, chancing their arm with a lesser known, or very often have no idea of the massive breadth of whats not played/underplayed.

A lot of this might be the result of the demise of record bars at events and the hours we spent listening to stuff we didn't know, searching for stuff we didn't know existed as well as those wants,  listening to both sides, and talking records and exchanging stuff to take home and sift through, returning it at a later date on trust. Chalky is spot on on this.

I think it’s a case of one up man ship from the DJs to out do the other DJs ,a fear of emptying the dance floor from both the promotors and DJs in the bigger venues ,all records were new once ,I’ve seen the floor empty at The Mecca and Wigan ,you just need to have faith in some sounds .

On 18/10/2023 at 18:35, mick said:

Hi Mark. 

I was lucky enough to go to Wigan a few times from the age of 15 lol. But agree with you on many points on this.   I enjoyed the oldies niters for the buzz and as a youngster the dancersand clappingetc , but also enjoyed the Saturday niters for hearing new sounds especially records from Gary Rushbrooke and newer records from Richard although it looked so empty. 

When you mentioned what records Gary Rushbrooke did for you I totally agree especially with the Vondells, Ree Flores, Royal Esquires, Tommy Dodson ,Tee Fletcher , Embers crazy about you baby with so so so many more.  Not heard  gasoline powered clock for ages was it covered up as Lord Sitar and the Baltimore Marching Band?

Mick

Hi Mick,

Hope all's well pal, it's been a while!

Your first paragraph is interesting...........not new news to me of course but it has prompted me to consider that people were already hanging onto the past even BEFORE WC closed!!  Back to the OAN vs normal niter and M's vs Main Room discussion..............it's like a hamster wheel!!!

And yes, of course, all those other GR records you mention....I did say "on it goes" when I listed them.  But yes, the ones you mention all big GR tunes, Vondells, Ree Flores & Tee Fletcher in particular resonate with me.

I think GPC was c/u as you stated...........Lord Sitar does ring bells!

Cheers,

Mark R

I think DJ’s get (are getting) a bad rap on these topics of late. No…I’m not a DJ, and don’t want to be a DJ.

In the majority of cases, many of the DJ’s play lists (I hear out) seem very mixed with new and old(er). From ‘younger’ DJ’s like Jordan to our ‘ faithful’ DJ’s, it all seems pretty good to me.

So where are those ‘lazy’ DJ’s everyone’s banging on about who play ‘same old, same old’- I’ve obviously missed them.